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Featured Deuteronomy 5:29

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 10, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Thus far, one post by Bob has actually addressed the context from which the OP has been drawn but thus far none have addressed the contextual based reasons I have given nor provided any contextual based reasons why those conclusions are not contextual based.
     
    #21 The Biblicist, Dec 10, 2013
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Kram, i do not disagree with your conclusion so I will not debate it. What I dont understand however is WHY NOT.....why didnt He provide them with sight that they could change into the people He wanted them to be. Do you have any insight into that?
     
    #22 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 11, 2013
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :laugh: Yes....neither Winman nor Bob are able to do what was asked of them...In fact Winman mocks himself by making fun of your request to stay in the passage as if context did not matter.
    Bob repeating his out of context texts demonstates that he does not understand salvation biblically if he thinks it can be lost. Bottom line is he describes a works system when the bible describes a grace system.
    Winman only seems to want to disrupt any post:thumbs:
     
    #23 Iconoclast, Dec 11, 2013
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The only good thing to be seen here ....is the truth stands out against the error, the mocking, and the lack of anything coherent.
     
    #24 Iconoclast, Dec 11, 2013
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Guys, if you feel someone has broken the rules then please PM them or report them to the moderator of this forum (which I'm not), but don't change the topic of thread please.
     
    #25 Skandelon, Dec 11, 2013
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is a really good question. On numerous occasions God expresses a longing desire, patience and then anger or frustration with these people for their choices. If all that is needed to change them into what He has expressly proclaimed as his desire is a irresistible work of regeneration, then why not do it? What is he patiently waiting on? Himself?
     
    #26 Skandelon, Dec 11, 2013
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    SIDE NOTE: when attempting to be better (like in the game of chess) one always wants to improve & the best way to do that is to play/engage a better player than yourself.
     
    #27 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 11, 2013
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Deuteronomy 5:29 occurs in a private conversation between God and Moses in response to Israel's bold assertion they can and will keep His covenant. It is God's declared observation that their mouth does not match their heart.

    Deutronomy 29:4 comes from Moses speaking to Israel in lieu of all the miracles and signs they had witnessed the past 40 years and yet they rebelled and it is his observation that God has not given them spirtiual perception, spiritual eyes or ears. Hence, Moses believed that such ability had to be given and Moses was pretty tight with God. God himself reaffirms this cause (new heart) and consequence (obedience) relationship in Ezek. 36:26-27 as inherent in New Covenant salvation.

    Both observations are selected and recorded by the Holy Spirit as accurate reflections of their true condition.

    The reason why God did not give them such a heart is known to him and the only response provided in this same chapter is found at the close of the chapter:

    Deut. 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Dec 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2013
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    This is what is known as a "cop out", Biblicist simply refuses to answer.

    Well, if I was a Calvinist, I would answer that God did not want them to have this good heart, else he could have easily regenerated them and given it to them.

    A person would have to logically conclude that God desires these persons to have sinful hearts.

    Sheesh, if you are going to be a Calvinist, at least be a bold one. :rolleyes:
     
    #29 Winman, Dec 11, 2013
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The real question is why would God choose to save His enemies. He did not choose to do so with angels who fell. He could just as easily chose to save the fallen angels but He did not. I don't see anyone charging God with being unjust, heartless, unloving because He did not choose to save any of the fallen angels. Arminians should be outraged that God would be so heartless not to save fallen angels when it is clearly in His power to do so.

    Bottom line, "20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Nebuchadnezzar learned this lesson well:

    35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
     
    #30 The Biblicist, Dec 11, 2013
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    If God CAUSED the angels to rebel, and then punished them for their rebellion, then YES, God would be unjust.

    But in your system, what does it matter what I think? So what? God does whatever he wants. Is God afraid that someone will say he is unjust?

    Why don't you be a courageous Calvinist like Arthur Pink? Pink would come right out and say God hated some persons in all eternity, he desires to destroy them for his glory, he desired that they be evil.

    Why do we play games like little children and avoid the truth?

    Calvinism does not produce many courageous disciples.
     
    #31 Winman, Dec 11, 2013
  12. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Angels lived to see God in his glory in Heaven, We have not, I believe this is why God has chosen to allow redemption for mankind.
     
    #32 Jordan Kurecki, Dec 11, 2013
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Whatever cause you want to assign to the fall of angels I will be more than happy to assign to men (because it is the same - willful sin). Hence, there is no difference in cause or consequence and so why are you not enraged against God for not saving fallen angels, when it is clearly in His power to do so if He merely chose to do so. You have no grounds against unconditional election for some to salvation among men any more than God's unconditional refusal to redeem fallen angels as both share the same cause (willful sin) and the same consequence (condemnation). The soverign will of God can be the only distinction between God choosing some fallen men to salvation while not choosing any fallen angels to salvation.

    Moreover, you are merely side stepping the original issue between us. The whole of human nature existed in Adam when Adam sinned and no one can deny that. Hence, the TOTALITY OF UNFALLEN HUMAN NATURE willfully acted when Adam acted and thus death which is the predicted consequence of sin (Gen. 2:17) is the just condemnation of every individualized human being as their human nature IS the nature which sinned.
     
    #33 The Biblicist, Dec 11, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 24

    3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!”

    Notice that, Miriam, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb and a number of other OT saints are in that group.

    Yet "over time" Israel turns to wickedness. And the Levites (among some others) choose to remain faithful to God.

    When we look for "details" with the golden calf - at no point does God claim he has sabotaged the system and not given Israel the necessary means to persevere in the initial strong commitment where THEY say Ex 24:3 and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!”

    Now Deut 5:29 -- 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!.

    God's lament is not about "himself" being saboteur of his own plans, or about Himself forgetting to provide the necessary means. Nobody can doubt that.

    Is 5:4
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

    Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God on that one - informing Him of just what He did wrong - sabotaging His own plans or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.


    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1

    Exodus 24

    3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!”

    Notice that, Miriam, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb and a number of other OT saints are in that group.

    Yet "over time" Israel turns to wickedness. And the Levites (among some others) choose to remain faithful to God.

    When we look for "details" with the golden calf - at no point does God claim he has sabotaged the system and not given Israel the necessary means to persevere in the initial strong commitment where THEY say Ex 24:3 and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!”

    Now Deut 5:29 -- 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!.

    God's lament is not about "himself" being saboteur of his own plans, or about Himself forgetting to provide the necessary means. Nobody can doubt that.

    Is 5:4
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

    Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God on that one - informing Him of just what He did wrong - sabotaging His own plans or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

    The Calvinist would answer God "the reason they have no such heart is because God has not "given" it to them."

    How instructive.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #34 BobRyan, Dec 12, 2013
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The same goes for the fall of Adam and Eve.... "Faulty wiring"?? "Faulty programming??"" - or free will


    Adam and Eve, the fallen Angels - "whatever the cause" cannot be "God wired them to do it".

    God does not save the wicked in the lake of fire because they refuse to believe God and obey. The fallen angels put themselves in the same position long before there was even one wicked person on planet earth.

    At EACH STEP of the way God could have stopped the entire sin suffering and loss process - by simply revoking free will for sinless Lucifer, and then if not then - well then for 1/3 of the sinless but soon to be fallen Angels, and then if not then will then for sinless Eve -- and then if not then - well then for sinless ADAM... and then if not then - well then for the Jewish Nation..

    "HE came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1.

    God has paid a high price FOR NOT revoking free will for either sinless beings or fallen humanity.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #35 BobRyan, Dec 12, 2013
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  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Since I do not believe God caused either Adam or Angels to sin, and since I do not believe God "hard wired" Adam to sin then all the objections thus far listed are mute and invalid. Thus you still have the same problem. You can no more object to God not choosing to save some fallen creatures among men, when He is perfectly able to do so, if God chose not to save other fallen creatures among angels, when God is equally able to do so but simply chose not to. According to your logic such a God is not the God you believe in nor would serve if he could save fallen creatures but simply chose not to while choosing to save other fallen creatures. Hence, your problem remains.
     
    #36 The Biblicist, Dec 12, 2013
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