Did Christ actually save anyone on the cross?

Now -

I have to ask this.

WHY is it so important to some of you to try to convince the world that God "pre-selected" who could or could not be saved?

Why do you reject volumes of scripture that says Christ died for All Men and instead work so VERY very hard to try to teach that God's message of salvation is only offered to a select few?

Why is it important to you to teach this doctorine? (I tell you, flat out, I think it is a totally false doctorine, born of some kind of pride.) I feel it is some need on your parts to say, "I'm special. God could have chosen anyone, but He picked me." You are special. God picked you, and you accepted. But people GOD PICKED THE LOST too, God sent His son to the WORLD, not to "parts of the world." God sent the message of grace to "ALL MEN" - some men REFUSED THE TRUTH."

I ran into one the other day.
They asked, point blank, "Am I going to hell just because I never learned about your Jesus?"
I said, "No. You are going to hell because, after learning about Jesus, you rejected Him."
He said, "When did I ever learn about Him?"
I said, "Right now, tonight, in this conversation. You know what the defintion of sin is, you know that by that defintion, everyone, you, me, the Pope, Billy Graham, Mother Theresa, Paul, Peter have sinned. You know that Christ died to take the punishment of that sin for you. You know that Christ offers you a royal pardon, you know that Christ offers you unconditional love. You know that there is a God - you admitted that. Yet, you reject the salavation offered to you via Christ."
He said, "I reject any God that lets men suffer eternal punishment."
I said, "See. You know the truth, and you reject the truth. You didn't even say, "I refuse to believe he exists, you said you reject HIM personally. So you have CHOSEN hell over Christ."
He got very, very, very quiet, and said, "I never thought about it that way."
I said, "Don't blame God for your choice."

He wants to talk more.

Pray for him.

And stop teaching false doctorines that contradict the bible. The bible says, "They perish because they refused the truth."

The bibles says, "Believe and thou shalt be saved."

 

Actually the Doctrine of Election removes any reason for pride on man's part. He recognizes that his Salvation is entirely the work of God.

Pride is manifested in those who say: Jesus Christ died to save sinners and I helped by choosing to believe.

 

Proof please. Because I can offer the contrary.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV

Once again Wes you have shown us that you hold to some very un-orthodox ideas that even Arminians reject. </font>[/QUOTE]You want proof? Be a Beraean, search the scriptures to find out if what I am about to tell you is not true.
Did Jesus atone for sin or did he not? Yes or no?

Do the scriptures tell us that Jesus died to atone for sin? Yes or no?

Does 'atonement' mean that one pays the penalty in the place of another? Yes or no?

If Jesus died to atone for sin, then those who sin need not die to pay the same penalty that has already been paid by another. True or False?

Scriptures reveal that by His death, Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin in ALL times. His death is a "ONCE-for-ALL" payment of the penalty of sin. Do you believe that? Yes or no?

Johnp, says that there is no atonement for the HOUSE of ELI. However, when one looks at the situation surrounding Eli's house one sees that the son's of Eli were cursing God continually, they were not corrected by Eli, nor were they repentant, nor did they seek forgiveness or stop doing it. Therefore, there is no atonement for the children of Eli, and they continued in their sins until their deaths, dying in an "unsaved condition". The sin of cursing God was atoned for by the Christ, here's an example of that. Saul, the anti-Christian zealot, cursed the Christ, even sought out those dratted Christians to destroy them. Yet, God stopped him in his tracks one day and converted Saul to PAUL, Saul repented of his sin, and never again cursed the Christ, and the Christ made Him the most prolific teacher of the Christian life style, from whom we today learn to live as Christians.

If Jesus atoned for sin, and scripture says that he did, he atoned for ALL sin in ALL times. From the very beginning including Adam and Eve's sin.

If you read Romans chapter 6 you may understand what Paul is telling the Romans about sin.

Now then If Jesus did not atone for sin, what did he die for? He did not die for you AFTER you recognized your sin, because He died 2000 years ago, so that YOU need not die in your sin which He paid for with HIS OWN blood! So,.by simply thinking things through you should be able to see that what I said is true, we do not die for our own sin, Jesus did that in our stead.

If we don't die for our sins, what do we die for? First let me tell you that there are two deaths spoken of in scripture. One is death of the flesh, and the other which is called the second death is the death of "being", "existing", the death of spirit. The death for sin ALWAYS refers to the SECOND DEATH! "For it is appointed unto man once to die (natural death), then the judgment" There are two judgments spoken of in Scripture. One of deeds, and one of Life. The judgment of deeds does not lead to judgment of life, for even the most vile person survives the judgment of deeds. The judgment of life is based entirely on whether or not our name is found in the book of life. Those who's name is not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire called the second death. those who's names are found in the book of life, receive salvation into everlasting life.

Sins are unrighteous deeds that we do. It is said that we "commit sins" that is we do something that is sin, it is a work or deed that we do because we have a propensity to sin that stems from our 'disobedient nature' thanks to Adam and Eve. So sins are judged at the first judgment which does not result in death. While Salvation and or death is judged by what is written in the book of life.

I hope that you will be a Beraean and find the truth in scripture. Remove the numbering system from your reading of the word, and read for thoughts, not divisions of thoughts. Read for the whole message, not merely selected thoughts that someone else told you about. Your scriptures will come alive for you if you remove the verse numbering system as you read. Become one who rightly divides the word of Truth.

 

Christ died for me Wes, I have no doubt about that.

You have failed to answer my question. You made a statement that men do not die because of their sin. I asked for Scriptural support, and all you gave me is a bunch of non sensical jiberish about atonment.

So give me Scriptural proof, because YOU made the claim.

I say man does die because of sin and Rm 6:23 pretty clearly proves that.

How else can you interpret it?

 

Look at Revelation 20 1-15 but especially 14,15. You will see two judgments, one of deeds both good and bad, righteous and unrighteous deeds, and one based on ones name being in the book of life. Now tell me what conclusion you draw.

I see the judgment of deeds as the judgment for what we have done our actions, our works, accomplishment, and disappointments. I see the second judgment as that of eternal life or death. The book of life, kept (maintained) from the foundation of the world, with names being written in and blotted from it, determines whether or not one is cast into the lake of fire, the second death, or passes from death into life everlasting with Jesus.

My conclusion is that sins do not condemn us to death! Jesus atoned for sin, all sin in ALL times. It is lack of faith in Jesus, God the son, that causes us to be cast into the lake of fire! For by grace are we SAVED THROUGH FAITH..

I will provide other scriptures when I get time to record them.

 

Revelation 20? Are you sure you want that to be your proof for your statement that men do not die because of sin?

Before we take a look at this, tell me, are you going to die? I know that unless Christ returns I will one day die. Do I die because I have rejected Christ? No, Christ is my Savior. I die the first death because of sin, even Christians die because of the effects of sin.

Now then Revelation 20. My conclusions are that of conservative Bible scholars for centruies. This passage records the great Whtie Throne Judgement of sinners- lost men, not the redeemed.

This is one judgement. The first book will show that lost mans deeds are evil, the second will show that He was never repented and was redeemed.

So you err in assuming believers are included in this judgement. They are not, only lost sinners are. They are already dead, they died the first death and now face the second death, the eternal death or judgement in hell.

Ok, answer in regards to Rm. 6:23- How else can you interpret it? It says that the just penalty for sin is death.

 

Romans 6:23 does indeed declare the JUST penalty for sin is death. It does not say the MANDATORY or INESCAPABLE penalty for sin is death!

 

If a person is saved they do not face the second death, and quite possibly (if Christ returns) they will not have to face physical death.

But you can't explain it away. It says that death is the wages of sin.

 

But the gift of God is eternal life!

We all still sin no matter how hard we try to not do so. So, living by your rule, there will be no man saved, for all have sinned!

OH, But wait! Jesus atoned for SIN, ALL sin in ALL times, ONCE for ALL! He paid the death Penalty for ALL sin! The conclusion one must draw from that is that no man dies for the sins he commits, the penalty has already been satisfied!

 

Rev 20 is but one reference that Identifies that man is not sentenced to death by sin, because man's sins are judged as deeds, and there is no one who is cast into the lake of fire because of their deeds. Those whose names are not found in the book of LIFE are the ones who are cast into the lake of fire.

Foolishness! We die because it is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment.

Do I err in assuming the book of life contains the names of believers ONLY? Will unbeliever's names be found in the book of life? Why is the book of life at the Great White Throne Judgment if there will be no believers there? Is it possible for God to make a mistake?

 

Its there to show the wicked dead that they have no eternal life. Why would the believers have to be present at the Great White Throne judgement anyway? It is a final judgment of the wicked.

Thanks for proving my point too. It is appointed unto man once to die, what is the reason for which he must die; easy answer- sin.

There are two deaths (three if you count the fact that we are spiritually dead at brith), physical death is not the same as the second death or judgment- terms which are used synonomously.

Part of the curse of sin is physical death. That will not be done away with until the final ressurection.

You have failed to answer Rm 6:23. Yes the gift of God is eternal life, but that gift is not granted to all.

You totally misconstrued what I said. Do you agree that everbody (expect for thoes alive when Christ returns) will die?

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

The idea is that death can be traced back to sin. Yet you continue to deny that men do not die because of sin.

 

Wes - I respect where you are coming from and I respect what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree with you regarding sin simply because - rejection of Christ ~is~ sin, ergo, man DOES die because of sin. They don't die because of the law. But not all sin is legalistic.

 

The gift is given to any and all who have faith in God...even those who believe on the name of Jesus!

And, in spite of the fact that those with faith in God may continue to sin, they don't die because of their sins! So Romans 6:23 is not mandatory! It is not law in stone! Man does not die because of sin, man dies because it is appointed for man to die, which is the separation of spirit from flesh, then the spirit faces judgement for the spirit is the life of the flesh, the spirit controls the flesh, so if the flesh sins, it is because of the spirit! The flesh faces no judgment, it merely decomposes to it's base elements....dust to dust!

For those with Faith in God they too are judged according to their deeds, and they are judged for life and death. If they have faith they live, if they lack faith they die!

 

Thanks TexasSky,
It's OK to disagree with me, and it does not hurt my feelings that you do. I agree that rejecting God is sin, but man's death does not come from rejecting God, for Jesus atoned for ALL sin in ALL times Once for ALL, Man's death comes from being judged "lacking faith in God". It is "through faith" that we are saved...even believing in the Name of Jesus!

 

Didn't you read my post?

 

Two quotes, one answer.

Then the bible lies!

My bible tells me the purpose for Jesus dying is to take away the sin of the world. Our Beloved John the Baptist said in referring to Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world!" In John 1, Jesus is declared to be the one who would take away the sin of the world.

Jesus came, Jesus died! Now either sin is done away with, or the bible lies.

You must decide for yourself whether or not you believe Jesus' death took away sin. But I believe what the bible tells me!

 

So are you saying that there is no sin in the world anymore? Are saying that men are not condemned because of their sin?

I truly hope that is not what you are saying.

 

Wes,

Oh, I agree with you regarding faith saving us. I also agree with you when you say we must choose to accept faith.

I just believe refusing Christ is sinful.

 

Did Jesus death on the Cross atone for sin? YES! or NO!

Does Scripture say that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world? YES! or NO!

Does Scripture say that Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL? YES! or NO!

As a good Calvinist, you believe the literalness of the Whole bible? YES! or NO!

Now to answer your question. It is obvious that Jesus died 2000 years ago, and yet man continues to sin! So that means the bible lies! RIGHT?

If the bible does not lie, then it must be possible that somewhere in the bible, the meaning is that Jesus died to atone for all sin in All times, but did not take away the sin itself, but only paid the penalty of sin to satisfy God the Father. And In paying the Penalty of sin, He removed that sin penalty from man, those other than himself because he is the ONLY begotten Son of God which makes Him God the Son.

Now with the Penalty for sin having BEEN PAID ONCE FOR ALL, it should be obvious to you that we sinners do not need to die for our sins because the penalty has already been paid. So man does not die for sin! So why does man die? Scriptures tell us from Cover to Cover that it is man's faith in God that pleases God the Father. So, God made it possible for man to not face the penalty of sin, so that he could live for ever. But he put a stipulation on that gift of Everlasting life. He said that only those who believe can receive the gift. Yes, it is THROUGH FAITH that we receive everlasting life, which was made possible because we don't die for our sins...Thank YOU JESUS!

So what about those who don't believe? If Jesus' atonement was for sin as the scriptures say it is, then the sin of the unbeliever is atoned TOO! Does that mean the unbeliever does not die for sin? Yep! sure does. Then they must be saved, right? NO! The unbeliever lacks faith in God, and it is through faith that we are saved! So if they lack faith they get cast into the lake of fire, the second death. They die for lack of faith! while the believer Lives because of faith! Pretty simple ain't it?

 

So do I! refusing the Christ is the same sin that Adam and Eve committed, Disobedience of God's Command. God commands us to believe, and when we don't it is sin! All sin has been atoned by God the Son, so that man can have everlasting life, not facing death for sin, through faith in Jesus.