Did Christ atone for unbelief?

That pretty much sums up the argument. It also draws an important contrast: In the Calvinist view, God elects an individual, in the other God elects a quality.

 

Here is the biblical answer from John 3:18 "The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God". Men go to hell because of their own unbelief.

No! I never said that. I said that Jesus' sacrifice is imperfect and incomplete if it does not satisfy God. It IS perfect and complete and God IS satisfied. That is why the gospel is for the world.

 

I believe and consequently I'm saved. Believing made me eligible for the atonement. With out belief we are not eligible. Unbelief is forgivable up to but, not past death. No sin is forgiven until the atonement has been applied through belief in Jesus Christ.
MB.

 

Wow, so you have to make yourself eligible? I was born eligible. However, the only thing that made me eligible was my sin.

 

If God is satisfied, then why do some people go to hell? You will probably say, "because they didn't believe". But if they go to hell because they didn't believe, how could God be satisfied?

 

Sin is not what sends people to Hell?! The reason Christ came to save His own was that they needed salvation from their sins!

Christ did not make payment for the sins of those going to everlasting punishment.He didn't pay for the sins of reprobates and then demand payment again having them endure eternal perdition.If Christ really did pay for the sins of everyone head-for-head then their sins are atoned -- every single person past,present and future has redemption under their belt.They have been reconciled with the Father.The Son intercedes for them -- heaven is the destiny for everyone.

But you very well know how absurd that is.

Of course Christ does not make everyone believe.Who is claiming that?

Besides,I wouldn't describe the salvation He wrought for every saved one as "He made us believe". He caused us to believe.He did not force us against our wills to believe.He changed our wills.He softened our hearts.He made our hearts pliable.That's what happens when one is given to Christ from the Father.

 

No, but apparently you do. Without doing anything, you believe that God gives grace to only a "select few" who He thinks "deserve" it solely because He "chose" them.

I do believe that if anyone comes humbly to Christ, God will receive him/her and save such. Do you agree?

skypair

 

I most emphatically do not believe that I or anyone deserves the frace of God! That's just garbage.

Of course I believe that God gives grace to a only a select few.

Just completely drop the deserving bit once and for all.Nobody is buying your junk.

Those who come humbly to Christ will be received by Christ.But no one under their own power can come to the Lord.God Himself must bring them to Christ.The elect alone will all be drawn to the Lord.All the ones the Father gives to the Son will be saved.

 

God, love Bob! raying: :laugh: Ever the bridesmaid - never the bride! Always letting Christ know what a great wife he would be but never saying "I do."

Do you not realize that marriage is the "grace of life," Bob? 1Pet 3:7 And like in marriage, so it is in salvation. You don't receive grace if you can't/won't CHOOSE to?

Stop "flirting" with God and commit yourself to His "headship" by saying "Lord I believe. Lord I receive. Lord I confess you now." (Rom 10:9-10) There's nothing wrong with saying that you chose Christ. He chose you. You aren't His "child," as if you have no choice in the matter. You're His bride -- if so be that you chose Him. But if you despise the prerogatives of the "bride," you also lose the privileges of the "bride," too, right?

Bob, you're being absolutely irrational with your disclaimers of human (your) responsibility. I suppose that if you have any spiritual "children," you also have to disclaim them, too. "Oh, no." I can hear you say, "they're not mine to raise, to disciple. Oh, no. 'All of Christ.' God, you deal with em."

You do wisely to call me "friend," BTW. Jesus called His disciples that before they were indwelt and so, no doubt, the relationship was mutual. Indeed, they had not yet been "born of God" and so that was the proper assignation for Chirst per their relationship to Him and for them in their relationship with Him. When this all clears up for you, I only pray that I may rightly call you "brother." But I must admit, your "stiff neck" has me on my knees. How many times would I have gathered you to me, but you would not.

skypair

 

Your Messiah-complex is repulsive.

 

Rip, how did you wife "deserve" to be married to you? How many women "deserved" to be your wife before you married your wife? To tell the truth, you couldn't really "elect" a specific one of YOUR choice, could you.

Let me submit that it happened this way with you and your wife and God and you: You (and God) probably saw MANY who were "worthy" of "undivided attention," aka marrying to. (like God - look at me! - you don't seem to me to be a very discriminating man. :laugh So what made the difference? She loved you and she submitted herself to you, no? Did that make her "deserve" you more? No, but you're not gonna marry a girl that doesn't love you, are you? I mean "hose yourself off," fella! You're not exactly the hottest thing to hit Las Vegas! :laugh:

But what is your answer? You guys are into this "Greek god" thing of special "offspring," "born of the gods," fate rather than free will, que sera, sera. I don't see that in scripture. I DO see it in Augustinianism/Calvinism. Even Plato would probably say to you "BUSTED!"

How about "those who COME humbly to Christ WILL RECEIVE CHRIST?! Why would anyone think to come proudly to Christ to receive a gift?

I think you may be suffering from a "high self-esteem." Re: there was a math test recently in which the Koreans scored 90% and the Americans scored 34%. When asked later, the Koreans said they weren't very good at math but 70% of the Americans said they were good at math! Well, the Koreans had learned math well and the Americans had learned "self-esteem" well! :laugh: You actually seem to think you have something you DON'T have.

I will never deny this!

Correction -- ARE saved. God doesn't give them to the Son unless they are reconciled to Him first! That, "coincidentally," is the way Jewish marriages worked as well!

skypair

 

It seems you are speaking of eternal life.If so,you are way out of bounds Mr.Wingless.You are in violation of BB rules.

 

Since you won't respond logically to my argument I am only left with carrying on this debate you according to your own terms:



Ther you go. You can have the last word. :smilewinkgrin:

 

I have quoted scripture--John 3:18--to show you why people go to hell. What is wrong with that answer?

How can God be satisfied? Are you saying that God is not satisfied with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross? Are you saying that Jesus' sacrifice has a shortcoming?

Consider the myriad sins of Adolf Hitler. Hitler was an offense to God. Will God go through eternity with the sins of Adolf Hitler unpaid for? Will the consequences of Hitler's murder of 6,000 Jews remain unpaid in all eternity? Will God never achieve perfect justice in punishing the sin of Hitler? You reply, "Well, Hitler in in hell is he not?" Can Hitler by spending eternity in hell pay God back for the henious sins he committed while on earth? No, he cannot. If everyone who has ever lived was sent to hell for eternity, not a single sin of Hitler could be atoned for. Not a single one! Then, how is God's justice fulfilled in the case of Adolf Hitler? God's justice regarding Hitler's sin is satisfied in the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. Jesus satisfied God (propitiated God) for all sins ever committed when he died on the cross. If this is not the case, then we have a God who remains eternally unrecompensed for mankind's sinfulness. Such a position grossly underestimates the perfect sacrifice that Jesus offered for sin. The truth is that Jesus offered a perfect sacrifice that satisfied God for all sin. God is satisfied with his son and his cross-work. The gospel is the proclamation of God's satisfaction and the availability of salvation through Christ to anyone who believes.

 

Excellent thought out answer :thumbs:

 

John 3:18 states as clear as can be why people go to hell.

 

You've misunderstood my point. My point was, if the atonement satisfies God's wrath on every sinner in the world, then why do some people go to hell? If there are some who still go to hell, then it would also logically mean that God's wrath had not been satisfied for those people. Is God wrathful to those who don't believe?

So, what is God's purpose in sending men to hell? God will also eventually send Satan to hell. Are you suggesting that this act will never satisfies God's wrath toward Satan either? Maybe you think Christ's death atoned for Satan's sins too.
Please just tell me God's purpose for sending people to hell. I believe it is to satisfy his wrath for those whom Christ's death was not meant for.

 

So, you think this verse exhaustively answers the question? Of course I don't think you would apply this to infants (since they don't believe), so I don't think you can say that this verse exhaustively explains why people go to hell. Of course I believe that those who are unbelievers are already condemned.

Take a look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Those verses address specific sins that keep people out of heaven. I'd be very interested in seeing how you reconcile this verse with the belief that it only "unbelief" that keep people out of heaven.

 

I don't see how you can know whether I misunderstood you or not. However, it is clear that you have not answered the question I have asked. Let me restate it. Is Jesus' death a perfect sacrifice for sin that satisfies (propitiates) God? And let me apply that general question to a specific situation. Did Jesus' death pay for the sins of Adolph Hitler? Please answer.

 

My answer to your first question is yes. My answer to your second question is "I don't know". I definitely believe it was powerful enought to, but I don't know if it was meant to.