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did Christ die for all?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by massdak, Oct 4, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks GH for the advice and I do appreciate prayers, but why not be brave and include vs. 19 so scripture can speak for itself?

    What about vs. 15 in what you did include?

    Why have you chosen to overlook the word many? Is this not a tradition of men? How old is this doctrine that all shall be saved? Is it really from God?

    Truth can withstand the greatest scrutiny, so go ahead, if what you say is true, include vs. 19 in there and explain why this is found in context of scripture you are trying to make to say what it doesn't and can't say.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  2. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    The Scriptures say that God's elect are the descendants of Jacob and of Israel.
    Jesus will indeed save the Jews who are the elect of God.

    That difference, is that when Jesus declared the reason for him dying, the church did not exist! He declared the reason for his dying is to atone for the sins of the world, thereby removing sin from hindering Salvation. That is, sin cannot prevent one from being saved, because Jesus paid the penalty for ALL the sins of the World. It was not until Jesus ascended to the Father's right hand and the Holy Spirit descended on the believers, that the building of the church of Jesus Christ began.

    Jesus established the church in the Apostles, for it was Peter's confession of who and what Jesus is that is the Foundation upon which Jesus built His church. that would be built using the mortar and bricks of who and what He is. He did not "buy" the church with his blood, the Spilt blood of Jesus is the mortar the holds the bricks in place. The foundation upon which the church is built is "who and what Jesus is", as first confessed by Peter.

    Jesus blood spilt, atones for the sins of the whole world, past present and future. All who believe in Jesus are part of his church, and the invitation is open to Whosoever...

    Paul's letter is to the Gentile Roman believers who came to believe because of the word preached to them. God's chosen (elect) people are the Jews. We who believe in Jesus, are adopted into the elect through faith.

    Who are the elect:
    Isaiah 42:1
    Isaiah 45:4
    Isaiah 65:9
    Isaiah 65:22 or 22
    Matt 24:22
    Matt 24:24
    Matt 24:31
    Luke 18:7
    Romans 8:33
    Col 3:12
    1 Tim 5:21
    2 Tim 2:10
    Titus 1:1
    1 Peter 1:2
    1 Peter 2:6
    1 Peter 5:13
    2 John 1
    2 John 13

    Just some verses for further consideration
     
  3. GH

    GH New Member

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    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Dear Bro. Dallas,

    How many were included in the "one man's (Adam) disobedience were made sinners? Were we not all made sinners? Aren't we all bound in disbelief? Are there any righteous? Ergo how many are included in the obedience of "one" (Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, Messiah of the world) who shall make many righteous. I see no conflict - the one many (Adam)= the other many (Jesus).

    Besides the previous verses out and out say ALL on both sides of the equation. You can't deny THAT unless you allow what you've been taught to make God's word of no effect.

    You decide. The choice is yours if you so believe that.

    And I DO pray that you will come to see the beauty of the glorious gospel, the GOOD NEWS. God will have all men saved by the counsel of HIS OWN WILL.

    Bless you in your journey into all truth.

    Love in Him, GH
     
  4. GH

    GH New Member

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    The Scriptures say that God's elect are the descendants of Jacob and of Israel.
    Jesus will indeed save the Jews who are the elect of God.

    That difference, is that when Jesus declared the reason for him dying, the church did not exist! He declared the reason for his dying is to atone for the sins of the world, thereby removing sin from hindering Salvation. That is, sin cannot prevent one from being saved, because Jesus paid the penalty for ALL the sins of the World. It was not until Jesus ascended to the Father's right hand and the Holy Spirit descended on the believers, that the building of the church of Jesus Christ began.

    Jesus established the church in the Apostles, for it was Peter's confession of who and what Jesus is that is the Foundation upon which Jesus built His church. that would be built using the mortar and bricks of who and what He is. He did not "buy" the church with his blood, the Spilt blood of Jesus is the mortar the holds the bricks in place. The foundation upon which the church is built is "who and what Jesus is", as first confessed by Peter.

    Jesus blood spilt, atones for the sins of the whole world, past present and future. All who believe in Jesus are part of his church, and the invitation is open to Whosoever...

    Paul's letter is to the Gentile Roman believers who came to believe because of the word preached to them. God's chosen (elect) people are the Jews. We who believe in Jesus, are adopted into the elect through faith.

    Who are the elect:
    Isaiah 42:1
    Isaiah 45:4
    Isaiah 65:9
    Isaiah 65:22 or 22
    Matt 24:22
    Matt 24:24
    Matt 24:31
    Luke 18:7
    Romans 8:33
    Col 3:12
    1 Tim 5:21
    2 Tim 2:10
    Titus 1:1
    1 Peter 1:2
    1 Peter 2:6
    1 Peter 5:13
    2 John 1
    2 John 13

    Just some verses for further consideration
    </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Yelsew,

    I agree with your post except for two points:

    1. Jesus DID buy us with His blood. We were bought by Him and we are not our own.

    2. belief - how does one come to believe except the Father draw (drag) one? It is His sovereign right to bring one to Himself in His own timing.

    Oh, and just one more point. The church existed from the beginning. As Christ did before the foundations of the world were laid. God builds it. He owns it. He grows it. He completes it. He reconciles it. He restores it. For HIS glory and honor. For He loved us first. You cannot love Him first.

    Love in Him, GH
     
  5. tnelson

    tnelson New Member

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    The Blessed Results Of Calvary

    1.Reconciliation is a blessed result of Calvary.
    1Peter 3:18 "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God"

    Notice that it does not say that Christ suffered to bring us toward God or to put us in a position to choose God. It says He came to bring us to God. Is there any uncertainty in that statement?

    Eph.2:16 "And that he might reconcile both Jew and Gentile unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

    How clear it is that Christ has effectuated reconciliation for His chosen ones, His church which is His bride.

    2.Remission of sin is another blessed result of Calvary.
    Heb.9:22 "without shedding of blood is no remission."

    Without His blood being shed for His people, there could be no removal of penalty of the law or cancellation of guilt.

    Heb.9:26 says that Chrit "appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

    Why did Christ appear? He appeared to put away sin, to bring to an end the penalty of sin that God's people had over them and the power of sin that God's people had in them. It is put as far away as the East is from the West, never to be remembered against us anymore. This He did by the sacrifice of Himself at Calvary.

    3.redemption is another blessed result of Calvary.
    Eph.1:7"In whom[Christ]we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sin"

    a.His redemption provided the ransom price for our souls.
    b.His blood removes us from the slave market of sin.
    c.His blood looses us and sets us free from the power of sin and Satan.

    This is my Redemmer.
    Do you know this Redeemer?
    Are you sure you know Him?
    Many religious people do not know Him.
    If you know Him, you could know the difference between religion and redemption, churchanity and Christ.
    "Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb:
    Redeemed thro His infinite mercy,
    His child and forever I am.
    I think of my blessed Redeemer,
    I think of Him all the day long:
    I sing, for i cannot be silent:
    His love is the theme of my song."

    4.Righteousness is another blessed result of Calvary.
    II Cor.5:21 says "For he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him"

    Not only was Christ made sin for His people, but He has made His people righteous.

    Can you right now with me say as did Isaiah,
    "I will greatly regoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels?" (61:10)

    by His Grace
    mike
     
  6. Aki

    Aki Member

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    the wages of sin is death. Christ dying for all men means that all sins of all men are already paid for its penalty. it also means that nobody can anymore be condemned because of his sins.

    nevertheless christ dying for all sins of a man is not yet salvation. the reason for such is God's standard, which is absolute righteousness. and though a man's sin is already paid for, he is not yet righteous enough to be accepted to God.

    thus, what is left is justification, or God's declaration of an individual as righteous. unlike paying for our sins which Christ did on the cross, justification is accomplished upon faith.

    it is in this basis that the conclusion is made that even though Christ died for the sins of all men, not all men will be saved - only those who will apply faith!
     
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    And we know that the Bible clearly teaches that faith is a gracious gift from God. Otherwise, it would not make sense to ask God to increase our faith if it was merely an action of man.
     
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Jesus' shed blood, you make all things seem as haphazard accident or at best an after thought. Maybe when God the Father realized He could not change the will of the leaders of Israel He decided He would forordain His Son to Die? Is that something like what you are thinking about when you say Jesus spilt his blood?
     
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    The atonement for sins through Jesus death on the cross justifies us. It is 'just-as-if' we had died for our own sins, death being the penalty for sin.

    By believing in Jesus Christ, we are sanctified to Jesus by our belief in Him. The change from unbelief to belief from sinner to saint, makes us 'different, or set apart from the unbelievers. Sanctified means "set apart", and it doesn't matter what one is sanctified for, but that one is set apart by something, in order to be sanctified.

    For Christians, being sanctified is a matter of belief, where we Christians believe in Jesus the Christ, we are thus separated from all who do not.

    We are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. We
    who believe in Jesus Christ are not judged (according to Jesus). All who do not believe in
    Jesus are judged by their unbelief, and cast into the lake of fire.

    The separation of the sheep and the goats is a matter of the faith condition of those being separated. Believer's in Jesus are the sheep, all others are the goats.
     
  10. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Jesus' shed blood, you make all things seem as haphazard accident or at best an after thought. Maybe when God the Father realized He could not change the will of the leaders of Israel He decided He would forordain His Son to Die? Is that something like what you are thinking about when you say Jesus spilt his blood? </font>[/QUOTE]There is nothing haphazard about God's atonement, which is our justification, or Our belief in Jesus, which is our sanctification or the very clear fact that God did all the work and all we can do is believe. Not a thing haphazard about that!
     
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Amen. So you agree that Jesus did not spill His blood, but that He shed it purposefully in accordance with the eternal will of God the Father?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  12. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Have never stated otherwise!
     
  13. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Yelsew,
    Below is a post originally made by you. Read it carefully. Within it you will find that you stated 'Jesus' spilt blood'. The Bible does not say that He spilt his blood. This is the reason I responded to you by saying that you make the sacrifice of Christ haphazard, as an afterthought. When something is spilled it is an accident. The shedding of Christ's blood was eternally purposed by God the Father and cannot ever be thought or allowed that any think of it as an accident.

    I was not making any kind of statement such that I thought his sacrifice was haphazard, but observing the statement that you made. With witnessing like this it is no wonder you cannot believe in the truth of Scripture, please don't ever witness to anyone using the words 'spilt blood'. Ok. Whether you believe man chooses or God chooses at least believe and tell everyone that Christ died purposefully.

    The Scriptures say that God's elect are the descendants of Jacob and of Israel.
    Jesus will indeed save the Jews who are the elect of God.

    That difference, is that when Jesus declared the reason for him dying, the church did not exist! He declared the reason for his dying is to atone for the sins of the world, thereby removing sin from hindering Salvation. That is, sin cannot prevent one from being saved, because Jesus paid the penalty for ALL the sins of the World. It was not until Jesus ascended to the Father's right hand and the Holy Spirit descended on the believers, that the building of the church of Jesus Christ began.

    Jesus established the church in the Apostles, for it was Peter's confession of who and what Jesus is that is the Foundation upon which Jesus built His church. that would be built using the mortar and bricks of who and what He is. He did not "buy" the church with his blood, the Spilt blood of Jesus is the mortar the holds the bricks in place. The foundation upon which the church is built is "who and what Jesus is", as first confessed by Peter.

    Jesus blood spilt , atones for the sins of the whole world, past present and future. All who believe in Jesus are part of his church, and the invitation is open to Whosoever...

    Paul's letter is to the Gentile Roman believers who came to believe because of the word preached to them. God's chosen (elect) people are the Jews. We who believe in Jesus, are adopted into the elect through faith.

    Who are the elect:
    Isaiah 42:1
    Isaiah 45:4
    Isaiah 65:9
    Isaiah 65:22 or 22
    Matt 24:22
    Matt 24:24
    Matt 24:31
    Luke 18:7
    Romans 8:33
    Col 3:12
    1 Tim 5:21
    2 Tim 2:10
    Titus 1:1
    1 Peter 1:2
    1 Peter 2:6
    1 Peter 5:13
    2 John 1
    2 John 13

    Just some verses for further consideration </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  14. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I just re-read your post. Is your real name Bill?

    Do you know for as long as I have been on this board I never heard that argument until he came on and made it.

    How did you accept it so easily, is it because it fits into your 5 decades of bias toward humanism?

    How are the Jews going to be the elect, do they not have to beleive in the Messiah being Jesus?

    What are your thoughts on the anti-christ? I bet they are very interesting. I also am willing to bet you would disagree with me simply because I do not believe in constitutional Grace.

    Try this verse for further consideration:

    "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

    Questions:
    1. Who is speaking?
    2. Who is his audience?
    3. What do these believe?
    4. How shall these be saved?
    5. Who is they?
    6. What do they believe?
    7. How shall they be saved?
    8. Have you ever seen this scripture before?
    9. Where did it come from?
    10. How did it get there?
    11. What does this mean to the 'the Jews are the elect of God' theory?
    12. Will this help you to understand that even as the elect nation of God, individually these folks will have to come by Jesus?

    If not, ask yourself this question: Who was Jesus talking to in John 6? a. Aboriginees...b. Gentiles....c. Mormons....d. Jews.
    Bro. Dallas

    [ October 07, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  15. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Did the Christ spear his own side? NO! the spear of a Roman Centurian "gentile dog" broke the skin of Jesus and pierced his body causing the blood and water from the body once occupied by God the Son to be spilt upon the ground.

    Without the willingness of the Christ, that never could have happened. That was a deliberate act on the part of the Christ, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, and upon the part of the Roman Centurian. It was no accidental spill like that of the Exxon Valdez? No, nor was it a spontaneous issue caused by the Christ. The fact is, it happened in accordance with prophesy? Just as prophesy said it would. NO ACCIDENT!

    Now, does it matter the who or what regarding the spilling of the Blood of the Lamb of God. If you have something to question about this, why not question why the High Priest did not perform the deed? Instead it was a gentile dog performing a sacred act! Just outside the "City of God".

    I had nothing to do with that event long ago, except that it was for me that He died!

    The truth is, that it is the spilt blood of the Christ that atones for the sins of ALL mankind. There is nothing wrong with that statement, it is accurate. I stand by my comment, and you should be ashamed for questioning the idea expressed. It is not the spilt blood of Jesus that saves anyone! it is belief in the one whose blood was spilt that saves the one believing. And Yes, I explain salvation to unbelievers using that phrase, If you don't you are not using the whole truth!
     
  16. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    His Blood was shed Yelsew. Shed makes it deliberate. Spilt makes it accidental. I know you are a believer in the Blood cleansing you, but don't confuse spilt with shed. It is the same concept as a glass of milk, if I trip and drop it I have accidentally spilt it. If I pour it, I have intentionally committed an act.

    Read this:

    See, there is nothing spilt here. See, the high priests and all of Israel and all Gentiles are represented as performing the 'counsel determined before of God'. The blood of Christ was shed at Calvary and not spilt. This will do more to negate the belief you do have of God's sovereignty when you speak to unbelievers. Please consider this. WE do disagree according to the operations of the timing of the Holy Spirit, but please, never reduce the shedding of your Saviour's Blood to a vivid image of spilling as if by accident.

    Remember also the High Priest sanctioned the crucifixion by saying it was expedient for one man to die to save the nation. He and the rulers in Israel feared Roman punishment because of the stir Jesus was causing by calling himself King of the Jews.
    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Try to believe without the shedding of his blood and see how far you get. he is the passover, thus by his blood being applied to our doorposts [our hearts] the angel of death shall passover us. This is the truth as the Bible speaks it and this is the truth as I preach and teach it. Anyone who does not want to take this that is there business and it is for God to make it effectual by applying through the Holy Spirit this blood of the atonement to the hearts of as many who are ordained unto eternal life.

    it is my responsibility only to declare its accomplishment. I am not a salesman hoping in some percentage or bell curve. I trust and serve a Sovereign God who set the bounds of the earth, the waters and the nations and of man that he may not pass them.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I just re-read your post. Is your real name Bill?

    Do you know for as long as I have been on this board I never heard that argument until he came on and made it.

    How did you accept it so easily, is it because it fits into your 5 decades of bias toward humanism?

    How are the Jews going to be the elect, do they not have to beleive in the Messiah being Jesus?

    What are your thoughts on the anti-christ? I bet they are very interesting. I also am willing to bet you would disagree with me simply because I do not believe in constitutional Grace.

    Try this verse for further consideration:

    "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

    Peter speaking to the church in Jerusalem on the topic of the Gentiles vs the Jews. Notice it is a Jew stating that the Jews can be saved in the same way that the gentiles are saved, through Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Questions:
    1. Who is speaking? Peter
    2. Who is his audience? the Apostles and elders of the Church in Jerusalem
    3. What do these believe? That the gentiles should not be pressed into physical circumcision.
    4. How shall these be saved? by hearts purified by faith!
    5. Who is they? Gentiles
    6. What do they believe? Jesus is Lord
    7. How shall they be saved? Hearts purified by faith
    8. Have you ever seen this scripture before? Many times my friend, Many times.
    9. Where did it come from? Acts 15, see the context below.
    10. How did it get there? Luke wrote it, as a report to Theophilus!
    11. What does this mean to the 'the Jews are the elect of God' theory? It does not change that in the least! Because the Jews are God's Chosen (elected) people! During this time of the 1st Century Church the Jews have hearts hardened by God who chose them, and who has done many things in their history to demonstrate His power and love for them.
    12. Will this help you to understand that even as the elect nation of God, individually these folks will have to come by Jesus? Those who do through faith are saved, those who don't will eventually be saved by God as promised to them.

    If not, ask yourself this question: Who was Jesus talking to in John 6? a. Aboriginees...b. Gentiles....c. Mormons....d. Jews. E. a multitude, at least 5 thousand men, on the eastern coast of the sea of Galilee, invited to a dinner of bread and fish. v 1-16, The apostles in trouble on the sea v 17-21, many of the SAME from the east coast of the sea of Galilee crowd, but this time at Capernaum, v 22-66, and the Apostles v 67-71

    Yes, Jesus did mention that His Father gives people to him, but he also said that ALL who come to him he will not driven away. There is nothing about "an elect" in this discussion, even though you seem to see one.
    ========================
    The Context of Acts 15:11
    Interesting that there is nothing in this scripture that talks about an elect? BUT instead that Salvation comes with a heart purified by faith!
     
  19. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    yelsew, you are the one arguing for the special treatment of an individual because of national identity. Not me.

    I know the context of this scripture. it does not say 'hearts purified by faith' It says "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." Nothing about a heart purified by faith at all. It shows all to be through Grace.

    BTW, you sidestepped the point of many of the questions I asked you. These questions were meant to show the need for all to come by Jesus. The elect is a body known only to God; all shall come to Him by the door. Jesus is that door and is the only door.

    Please don't try to restate your statement. You said above the Jews were God's elect and now we Gentiles had to come by faith. The truth is that all of salvation for whosoever will is by Grace because whosoever is thirsty, whosoever is heavy laden whosoever is a nameless pronoun so me and you can't identify the elect. Do you get it?

    You are correct as to the purpose of the council in Jerusalem, but that was not the question. The question you answered 'that they should not burden the gentiles with circumcision' is 'what do these believe?' According to the plain words of Peter the 'we' being the whole assembly of the council believe they will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, even as the Gentiles believe. I did not ignore the context, nor did I damage the meaning of the scripture. This was the whole argument against the Judaizers that because even 'we' [these 'we' being Christians of Jewish tradition--experience and background] believe our salvation is by Grace. This is what they believe and not that they are saved by a heart purified by faith. Any body can claim this, even an idolator, yet if he is not entering through the door which is Christ, he will be turned away because he has not come by the only 'way, the truth and the life.'

    The Jews being the 'elect' theory and all others can only come by faith just doesn't follow scripture. It is appealing, it garners many catch phrases and can capture the attention, but it does not follow the whole counsel of God as James outlines also in Ch. 15. Why do you insist on context and then mutilate it to such a degree. The whole point my post was making is there is only one way to come to God.

    May God Richly Bless you Brother

    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    And what do you do with Isaiah?
    And Israel mine elect.
    Who has inherited the mountains of God? Israel! Who then are the elect of God? Israel!
    Who are the they? Israel! Israel is the elect of God! That however, does not preclude believers in Jesus from also being 'elect' in fact, in
    John is writing to another church and calling it an elect lady, and ending with "the children of thy elect sister greet thee". How does one become a child of a church? By believing in Jesus and becoming part of the church, no matter where that church may be.
    How is the spirit sanctified? By belief. Belief is what sets one spirit apart from another spirit. The setting apart is sanctificaton. There is more, but I'll be away for a few days and must get ready to go.
     
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