did Christ die for the sin of unbelief?

Seems you do believe that unbelief is a sin among all sins. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not being ambivalent. At the time of the post, and for the sake of argument, I assumed "unbelief" was a sin. Now, after reading later responses, I think maybe it might be more of a state then an action (yes, people are actually allowed to change their opinion after reading things on the internet). But mostly I think it's semantics - there doesn't seem to be any practical differnce, as either way it results in the same sinful position.

 

Yeslew

Sorry, Bro., can't accept your explanation. Yes, they certainly are groups of people but these groups of people are called by the sins they commit.

In His Grace
KD

 

But, KayDee, their deeds (sins) are tested as if in fire. Those that are bad are consumed by the fire in the manner that wood, hay and stubble, are consumed, leaving only ashes, but the person survives as one who has survived a fire. That is, everything of value to the one is consumed, leaving the one destitute of anything. Then the one is judged, without that for which they are known. Thus the one who murdered and thus became known as a murderer is cast into the lake of fire. Likewise the one without faith known as an unbeliever is cast into the lake of fire. It was not because of a sin that the unbeliever is cast into the lake of fire, but because of what he did not have...faith.

 

unbelief is a sin.

there are two spirits. christ and antichrist

we are physically born with antichrist.
it contains all "anti-components" of christ.

including faith and knowledge.

unbelief of antichrist is belief "in christ".

unbelief of christ is belief "in antichrist".

when we are saved, our antichrist spirit is
exchanged with the christ spirit.

our faith changes.

it is no longer faith of the antichrist spirit,
but faith of the christ spirit.


see how our unbelief in christ changes.

all sin of unbelief is forgiven if we believe we are "in christ" and have faith "in christ".

 

Yelsew said:

I find no where in scripture that unbelief is a sin!

How about the first commandment?

If unbelief is not sin, then it simply poses no barrier to salvation whatsoever.

 

John 16:9 clearly states that unbelief is a sin. In the words of our Lord himself: JN 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;.

Furthermore, Hebrews 3:12-13 makes a direct correlation between an evil, unbelieving heart and the decetfulness of sin: HEB 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. HEB 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

What is one saved from and what is one saved to?

Salvation must by its very name must render one saved, but from what and to what?

 

...And Yes, Christ did die for the sin of unbelief.

If we believe that Christ died to pay the penalty of sins, these are our options:

1. Christ paid the penalty for all the sins of all the people (that quickly leads to universalism)

2. Christ paid for some of the sins of all the people. The only sin excluded is the sin of unbelief (This is the view, by default, of our non-calvinist friends, most of whom, I'm certain, will vigourously protest-- but that doesn't change the facts).

3. Christ paid for all the sins, including unbelief, of some of the people (His elect). This is the correct & biblical view of the atonement.

 

John 16:9 clearly states that unbelief is a sin. In the words of our Lord himself: JN 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;.

Furthermore, Hebrews 3:12-13 makes a direct correlation between an evil, unbelieving heart and the decetfulness of sin: HEB 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. HEB 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
</font>[/QUOTE]

Jesus does not declare unbelief a sin, but that some are going to be proven they were wrong "about sin in that they refused to believe in me" Unbelief is not a sin, but a negative faith condition of man. It is the faith condition of man whereby man passes from death unto life or faces the second death.

Hebrews is written to those who are "believers", The author is warning them to not fall away becoming an unbeliever, notice the phrase, "departing from the living God" And notice what sin does? It deceives! Unbelievers do not have this to lose for they never gained it to begin with.

 

Ransom,

Because Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, HE removed sin from the Salvation equation. That equation since the atonement looks like this:

FAITH = SALVATION

Sin has nothing to do with salvation, it is strictly the faith condition of the individual.

Believers have faith
Unbelievers do not!

Therefore Unbelievers are not passed from death unto life, but are cast into the lake of fire, the second death which is death of the spirit of the unbelieving man. Sins are not a factor! it is FAITH ALONE that saves.

 

Hebrews was written those who outwardly indentify as the people of God. Just as any local church is made of true believers and make believers, so was the group of people to whom this letter was written.

It isn't hard to see that this is a warning to all not to be guilty of the sin of unbelief.

 

That's a nice belief system you have developed, but it is not true to the bible!

SALVATION IS BY FAITH ALONE! Sins, regardless of what you include therein, are not a factor, and God is NO RESPECTER OF MAN! At the final judgment, man's deeds (both sins and good works) shall be tested and then after that testing the person is separated as sheep from goats, sheep being the believers, goats being all others. The sheep are taken to be with Jesus, while the goats are cast into the lake of fire. The determining factor is the faith condition of the person, and not the deeds (sins or works) the person did.

Is it OK that you are a Calvinist? Sure, It is no up to me to prove you are foolish for adhering to such clap-trap as Calvin spewed. And NO, I don't adhere to Arminius either, My faith and my beliefs are in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah! He alone is worthy of my trust. It is a matter of life and death!

 

Pleas note in John 1:29, that Jesus takes away the SIN of the world, (singular). The sin of the world is found in Isaiah 53:6. I believe the reason for Jesus to take away the sin of the world is so God could justly resurrect all men including the unbelievers for judgement.(Rev. 20:11-15). Jesus takes away our sins (plural) because we look to Him for our redemption, and to recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. As the Spirit of God cannot be placed into unclean vessels, those without the Spirit of God (or the Spirit of Christ) are none of His. Jesus did die for the sin of unbeief- for those who now believe. (John 3:31-36)

 

Wayne, your literal reading of John 1:29 may be faulty. Sin as used there is all inclusive, that is all sins of all times are included in SIN. Isaiah 53:6 "We had all gone astray like sheep, each taking his own way, and Yahweh brought the acts of rebellion of all of us to bear on him." notice "acts of rebellion"? John and Isaiah are in concert, and the meaning is quite clear that Jesus Atoned for ALL sins of ALL times, so that Sin is not a factor in the Salvation of mankind.

The penalty of sin, death, is no longer carried out upon man. Sins that man does are all, save for one, forgiveable when they are confessed by those committing them.

Unbelief is not among sins, it is a matter of faith. A person who does not believe has no faith! That does not make the one a sinner, but it does make him lost, gone astray. Being "gone astray" is not a sin either, it is a condition of one's proximity to God.

 

Wayne, your literal reading of John 1:29 may be faulty. Sin as used there is all inclusive, that is all sins of all times are included in SIN. Isaiah 53:6 "We had all gone astray like sheep, each taking his own way, and Yahweh brought the acts of rebellion of all of us to bear on him." notice "acts of rebellion"? John and Isaiah are in concert, and the meaning is quite clear that Jesus Atoned for ALL sins of ALL times, so that Sin is not a factor in the Salvation of mankind.

The penalty of sin, death, is no longer carried out upon man. Sins that man does are all, save for one, forgiveable when they are confessed by those committing them.

Unbelief is not among sins, it is a matter of faith. A person who does not believe has no faith! That does not make the one a sinner, but it does make him lost, gone astray. Being "gone astray" is not a sin either, it is a condition of one's proximity to God. </font>[/QUOTE]yelsew you are getting way out there.
your doctrine is getting to the point past mere minor error </font>[/QUOTE]The one who is lost is not necessarily a sinner, but merely has not found "the Way". Sure, we all sin, but being lost by not yet establishing belief is not a sin! It is a condition! The condition of being apart from God, by not having belief in God.

That is why Jesus said, "I come to seek and to save that which was lost". He is not seeking believers who sin, he is seeking those who will believe and thereby be saved into eternal life.

Sin is a whole different issue. And you are too eager to put it all in one basket! If you are a pastor, you should not be as concerned with the sin of one until you have found that one who is lost. Being lost is not a sin! It is a condition of separation from God! Let's get them found then work on their sins! OK?

 

Yelsew said:

What is one saved from and what is one saved to?

He is saved from the due penalty of sin, which is death, and saved to eternal life (Rom. 6:23).

 

I am not goign to respond to all of this. We have been through it. We have answered these questions from Scripture many times and it didn't make any difference to you then so I don't suppose that it will now. And it really isn't worth it to me or you, but let me hit a few highlights.

Roms 8 makes it explicit. The fact that you don't think it does shows that you are changing this passage from what it says to fit your belief. It says "cannot" and "not even able." There is no way to get around that without twisting it.

There are real choices ... this is back to the same old line from you that you just won't give up. They do not want to make any other choice. They can make whatever choice they want. They are unable only because of their own sinfulness. That is not God's fault.

[qutoe]4. You cannot build a doctrine by using a verse out of context.[/quote]This coming from you????? I would love to see Scripture dealt with in context. I am begging for that. I have been for a long time.

He wasn't saved already. I don't know why you would even think that. He did need to believe. I don't know of any Calvinist who would deny this. The fact that you make this charge shows that you are twisting our beliefs to conform to what you wish us to believe. We do not believe this.

The problem you have here is that you think "elect" and "saved" are the same thing. The jailer needed to believe because he was unsaved. His election is what caused him to be interested.

I didn't. I used your words to demonstrate that you contradicted yourself.

At least we can agree on that ... even though you think we don't

In the broad terms of this debate you are. There is not a problem with that. You simply don't understand how the terms are used. Arminian refers to people who deny the sovereign election of God. Calvinist refers to people who do believe that. Arminian does not mean that you accept all the points of arminianism such as losing your salvation. Calvinism does not mean you accept all teh points of Calvinism. Again, we have been through this and you refuse to acknowledge the truth about it. In the end, I don't really care what you call yourself. It doesn't bother me either way. I refer to you as an arminian because there is no other word that characterizes your position.

That is exactly the argument. They ahve a real choice. They can come if they want.

Preaching is a part of God's foreordination. It includes preaching. Where he ordains the end, he necessarily ordains the means.

Your amazement stems from your misunderstanding. AS I said before, you confuse "elect" with "saved." I quoted a verse where Paul, under the inspiration of the Spirit, talked about the unsaved elect. Read it and you will see that I am right. Helen, you come in here and claim to know what you are talking about but then mess up on something like this and act like I am dumb. "Election" is to "salvation" (2 Thess 2:13). That is fundamental to any progress in understanding. "Election" is not equal to "salvation."

So you are teachign them Calvinism?? Why are you arguing against it here if you are directing them to Scripture which teaches it???

[qutoep]This is all biblical.[/quote]And reading very quicly, I don't see anything that contradicted Calvinism in that. It only contradicts the straw man you have made up in your mind.

Rom 8; Rom 3; John 6; etc. Too many to begin to list here.

You are not ... not by the evidence youare giving here. You are consistently misrepresenting things. That is why this discussion is so frustrating. It is hard to discuss things with people who will not represent their opponents correctly.

If you have the Calvinists writings there in front of you, please give evidence for a Calvinist who believes that election is the same thing as salvation. You have said that here. Please show us someone who believes that.

In the end, Helen, this will never be solved until accurate exegesis of Scripture becomes more important than it is now. I hope that day comes. Until then, this kind of thing will continue. It is increasingly frustrating to have this discussion here because the format does not lend itself well to it.

 

Roms 8 makes it explicit. The fact that you don't think it does shows that you are changing this passage from what it says to fit your belief. It says "cannot" and "not even able." There is no way to get around that without twisting it.</font>[/QUOTE]Pastor,

With all due respect, you couldn't be more misguided.

Romans 8 says, "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

What is it that man "cannot" subject himself too?

THE LAW OF GOD
It says nothing about man's inability to respond to the gospel in faith. In fact, the gospel and faith are not even mentioned.

A man without faith is carnal and we know that "without faith it is impossible to please God," once again we would agree that a carnal man can't please God because he DOESN'T HAVE FAITH. If he were to have faith HE COULD PLEASE GOD. This verse doesn't even speak of faith or man's response to to the gospel so to use it as a proof text for you belief that man is unable to respond to the gospel in faith is absurd!

 

For you call me misguided makes me wonder if you even read the text carefully. The text says what it says. I cannot imagine why you guys are so intent on denying Scripture to maintain your position. That boggles my mind.

Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The poitn of the context is between teh saved and the unsaved. The unsaved cannot please God. It does take faith to please God, you are certainly right. And yet they can't please God. It is specifically described as a matter of ability.

I say often, and I say it again now, we have to get back to the text of Scripture and put aside our biases that we carry in with us. You have approached this text with a presupposition about what it can and cannot say. Your position forces you to arrive at a certain position, predetermined before you ever open the Scripture. That is not sound theological method.