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Did God Create Evil and Sin for His Glory?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by beloved57, Feb 6, 2007.

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  1. beloved57

    beloved57 Member

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    Greetings everyone , here is a topic I am sure will get things rolling ! But I believe its a very important matter, and reveals how much we believe God is sovereign and in control of everything.....


    Scripture reveals that Almighty God has created all things

    Rev 4

    11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
    This is an acknowledgement from those who are Truly Redeemed and know God of the scripture. This is one of the blessings that Christ gives to the elect as spoken in Jn 17

    3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    God is seen to be the First Cause of everything or all things, that is all conditions , all circumstances, all actions, eveything. We cannot forget that this world we live in, started from nothing, zelch...

    Everything was created with a purpose in mind , a Divine purpose, and that purpose is Gods own Glory, and more specifically the Glory of His Grace.

    eph 2 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


    What better background in the wisdom of The All Wise God , Could He more have chosen than that of sin and wickedness ?

    Isa 45 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


    The word evil here is an interesting word, it is the word rah in the hebrew :

    1) bad, evil

    a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

    b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

    c) evil, displeasing

    d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

    e) bad (of value)


    f) worse than, worst (comparison)

    g) sad, unhappy

    h) evil (hurtful)

    i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

    j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

    1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

    2) deeds, actions

    Now, some folk want to pick and choose which of these definitions for evil God Created, but the truth of the matter is , He created all of them, yep, all of them.. God is the First cause of even our language and alphabet:

    Notice Jesus words, who is God BTW :

    11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

    everything was created by him and for him:

    Col 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Sin and Death was created for Him so he could manifest his victorious defeat of it ! Again, Gods purpose is to make known the exceeding riches of His Grace...


    Back to the word rah , its usage in the bible :

    gen 2 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    vs 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    gen 6 And GOD saw that the wickedness[rah] of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil [rah]continually


    There is some deep truth here, adam when he ate the fruit , he did not create evil, but he came to know it, experience it[also he did not create good, he came to know it and experience it]. The evil was already in his heart , when he sinned , it was made manifest , but it was put there in his creation by God. Remember, the purpose for all creation is for God to glorify His Triune Perfections and make known the riches of His Grace....

    Some of you are going to object and say that God made adam good ! He did, good because he was made according to Gods all wise purpose and plan to Glorify Christ and His grace. Adam had to sin, it was a must, hence God created him evil. That is how sin came into the world as death and judgement..through adam, and God created adam for that purpose:

    rom 5 : 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    God created and decreed sin into the world by adam.....
     
    #1 beloved57, Feb 6, 2007
  2. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    A quick welcome and hello beloved.

    Sounds like you're saying God is the Author of sin man.

    If Adam was created evil then the fall could not have happened. It would have been more of a level thing rather than a distinctly downward thing. :) That God caused it is beyond dispute. HaHa! :) Adams spirit was disconnected from God's at the moment he took the fruit but I can see that an evil inclination was there before that happened.

    When God said that everything was good then the implication is that it was good not evil in waiting or good because the evil part of the plan had been created. It was good. We might cause the word 'good' to become 'evil' and then we are in free willers territory changing the meanings of words. We should take the word as it is if it is possible I think.

    It is to reveal Himself in all His aspects and attributes to His Children and the rest of creation.

    Have you heard of a bloke called Vincent Cheung? http://www.rmiweb.org/index.htm
    He has some free downloadable books on the subject.

    I've got to go to bed my brain hurts. See you tomorrow.

    john.
     
    #2 johnp., Feb 6, 2007
  3. beloved57

    beloved57 Member

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    johnp says

    God is the First cause of everything, including sin !

    I disagree, though he was evil, it was not manifested until the fall !


    Amen

    Amen again, where do you htink that evil inclination came from ?

    All was Good because everything was set up according to His Divine wisdom and plan and pourpose...

    All things are good when they are ordered by Divine wisdom for His purpose, there is no freewill in this my friend. Have a good evening sir...
     
    #3 beloved57, Feb 6, 2007
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Did God create all things "good", as scripture says? If that is true, then you must be wrong when you say God created man "evil", or "bad".

    If what you have stated is true, then scripture is false and we have no basis to believe anything other than our own experiences.

    I guess I prefer to believe what scripture says about the creation of man.

    I notice you are non-denominational and posting in the Baptist only area. Sorry, but I have to report you.

    Does that mean you are evil for posting against the rules, or am I evil for reporting you? Or, is God the author of evil (may it never be!!!) and forced us both to do evil?

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #4 canadyjd, Feb 6, 2007
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    b57

    Your thread sounds like you are blaming God for sin . . . .

    Welcome to the board.
     
    #5 El_Guero, Feb 6, 2007
  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    This thread has been transferred to the Other Religions forum because it was started by a non-Baptist.
     
    #6 rsr, Feb 7, 2007
  7. beloved57

    beloved57 Member

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    What people fail to realize is that adam was created for christ and not christ as a result of adams fall. In other words the purpose of christ, slain before the foundation of the world, is the reason why adam was created to bring sin into the world...

    Look at col 1

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: This includes adam

    17And he is before all things[including adams fall], and by him all things consist.
     
    #7 beloved57, Feb 7, 2007
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God neither created sin NOR decreed sin --

    The author of evil is Satan - not God - though Satan continually comes up with inventive ways to pin this on God.

    God authored a FREE WILL intelligent creation. By definition FREE WILL enables intelligent life to CHOOSE without having the robotic-dependancy on the creator of that being to cause HIM to be the author of the evil chosen by the free will enabled being.

    This is an obvious point - as you look at the details of the fall of Lucifer and the fall of Adam and the fall of Israel -- but it is often glossed over in Calvinism.

    The "Adam created TO BRING SIN into the world" conclusions are the extremes to which the error mentioned in the OP can go if left unchecked by reason and scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Feb 8, 2007
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello Bob,

    I agree with some of what you said, till you brought in Calvinism. Classic Calvinism does not teach that God made evil. Please read "Confessions" by Augustine of Hippo. Calvin pulled more from Augustine then any other "Doctor of the Word".

    I just wrote on this very subject in my last weekly column "Paths of Life". LINK>> Mountain Monergism

    In short, the column goes into what sin is and where it comes from. I was not able to cover all views because of space. But as to what this thread is about....



    I side with Augustine as he viewed sin. Sin is a path away from God. Sin comes from mans will. (Free Choice of the Will, Book One)

    God is the author of the Law, not sin. Sin/evil is "not-God".

    Mans will is not a good thing, for mans will follows lust or pride. Our only hope is to be controled by the Spirit and overcome the power of a sinful will through salvation.



    In Christ...James

    PS...No need to read the column, but if for some reason you do choose to read it, please post a quick reply at the end, to help keep it in print. This is a local (non church) small newspaper. Yet they have given me freedom to write as I see it.

    Thanks.
     
    #9 Jarthur001, Feb 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2007
  10. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello beloved.

    And He sustains all things with His powerful word. Child-molestors and rapists and murderers being part of all things.

    Hello Bob.

    How is it then Bob that Paul actually makes the error of pointing God out as the main Character in sin? For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:32.

    I've replied to the paper for you James. :)

    GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    john.
     
    #10 johnp., Feb 8, 2007
  11. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    johnp,

    It's a common mistake to think of sin as a "thing," and by extension a created "thing."

    Sin is not a "thing." You can't hold it in your hand or tangibly interact with sin. Sin is a state of being, an act, a situation, etc.

    If God created everything, which God did, then we can view sin as an outgrowth of the interaction of specific of those things with God and with one another, but not a result of the First Cause.
     
    #11 tragic_pizza, Feb 8, 2007
  12. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tragic. :)

    thing : 3 any fact, quality or idea, etc that can be thought about or referred to. (Chambers)

    A quality or idea?

    For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:32.
    If you have an order - do you believe that the cross came after the fall or was the fall a means to the cross? Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

    john.
     
    #12 johnp., Feb 8, 2007
  13. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Qualities or ideas are not tangible. Can you give an example of an intangible, but unarguably created, thing?

    As to order, I really cannot say with any degree of certainty, but I suspect that the order is a moot issue, dealing with chronological progressions which have no real meaning outside of "time." If God is timeless, then "when" something happened is unknowable.

    I understand the passage in Romans to be speaking of humankind wanting to live apart from relationship with God, and God letting them do so. God's purpose - to be worshipped and to be merciful, loving, and full of grace, was served in allowing this opportunity for God to be merciful.
     
    #13 tragic_pizza, Feb 8, 2007
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tragic_pizza.

    You said that a thing cannot be intangible and the dictionary says it can be. The things we say are things we say. :)

    What passage, Roman 11:32? Romans 11:32 says that God caused all men to be disobedient what is there else? To be bound over is to be compelled to some action or inaction.

    john.
     
    #14 johnp., Feb 8, 2007
  15. Dustin

    Dustin New Member

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    Ahem, it's the Other Christian Denominations forum.

    Religions:

    Christianity (true religion)
    Islam
    Judaism
    Hinduism, etc...

    Denominations of the Christian Religion:
    Baptist
    Presbyterian
    Methodist
    Anglican, etc...
    etc

    I post in this forum because I'm not a Baptist, not because I'm a different religion.

    There's a big big big difference between denominations and religions.


    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Dustin
     
    #15 Dustin, Feb 8, 2007
  16. beloved57

    beloved57 Member

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    trpz says

    Even if you say sin is a state of being a state of being would be a place, hence a noun= a person, place, or thing ! God created all things, all conditions, all places, for His Glory.

    Its also to realize that paul personified sin as well, look at rom 7

    8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


    9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

    17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


    and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


    Law of sin, denotes power/principality/ dominion of a spiritual nature and scripture says in col 1

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    I believe that this covers sin as well....sin I would say is an invisible power or dominion...
     
    #16 beloved57, Feb 8, 2007
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    #17 canadyjd, Feb 8, 2007
  18. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Johnp . . .

    If then we are calling sin a thing. . . and we are considering this abstract thing created . . . Then by corallary, would God have created Love?

    And if God created Love . . . and God is Love then is God created?
     
    #18 El_Guero, Feb 8, 2007
  19. beloved57

    beloved57 Member

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    canady says

    Correct, God brought sin into the world through adam, that was His purpose !

    Adam was created to sin inorder for Gods Higher purpose would be manifested, which was christ. Adam was created for christ not the other way around !

    col 1 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: speaking of Christ..
     
    #19 beloved57, Feb 8, 2007
  20. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Again,

    This logic implies that God created sin and He created love . . . in light of 1 John (God is Love) . . . the implication would indicate that God might have created Himself.

    It is easier if we say that God allowed sin to occur to accomplish His purpose then to claim that God created sin for His purpose.

    Could He have created sin for His purpose? I think that interpretation is remotely possible, but doubtful.

    Could He have allowed sin to happen for His purpose? I think that interpretation is more likely.


     
    #20 El_Guero, Feb 8, 2007
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