Did God Create Evil and Sin for His Glory?

[mean spirited post and questioning of one's salvation is not permitted]

 

Double predestination is no longer a serious tenet of reformed theology. We hold the question of why some people refuse God's love as unknowable, rather than thinking a loving and holy God, Who desires all to come to reconciliation, to have damned some out-of-hand.

 

Dear tragic:

I am curious as to your User-name. It is quite funny and unusual. Did you suffer from a kitchen calamity so great and so indelibly imprinted upon your person, that you could not help but choose your User name??? Fill us in please! :laugh:

 

Just a couple of words that sound funny together. Sorry, not a great story, but there ya go.

 

tragic.

Moved on have you? Cool. Who cares? ...by the grace of God I am what I am...

There are many ways to answer this but I'll have mercy. Who's the 'we'? Are you talking for the whole of Reformed belief or what? Do you think there can possibly be an answer if double predestination is removed from the start?

Calvinists no longer claim to know everything? A big leap in the five months I had my feet up.

I see the reformation of the Reformation building up a head of steam. And you are a reformer are you? I think some would have difficulty in believing you came anywhere close to the 'we' but I couldn't possibly comment on that.

Your name is cool man.

john.

 

Yes you really have to do that.
Do you believe in theology? The word "theology" is not found in the Bible. Neither is; trinity, rapture, Christology, Soteriology, theophany, and hundreds of other words that pertain to Bible study that I could list here. But there are plenty of Scriptures that support the concept. Are you aware that the Apostle Paul also used the KJV?
Yes you have to read and study the Bible and demonstrate that the concept of free will is not taught in the Bible. You have yet to do that.

I am not a Calvinist (nor is Webdog who answered your post), but it is apparent that the Calvinist knows more of the Scripture than you do.

This is heresy. God is never "out of control" or he wouldn't be God. To say otherwise is blasphemy.
God did not give "control" of the earth to Adam. He gave Adam "dominion" to rule over it. God was still in control, and still is in control. He has never yielded up control of any part of his universe. Either you are Biblically illiterate or are playing a game of semantics. Which is it?
Secondly, where does it say in Genesis 3 that Adam yielded control of the earth to Satan. Quote the exact verse and explain how that happened. Otherwise you are in doctrinal error right from the start. You have made a false statement and cannot back it up with Scripture like I required you to do. Merely putting down a reference is fruitless.
Do the same with Luke 4. The reference to the chapter is meaningless. Quote the exact verse and explain how the authority and control of this world was yielded to Satan. Your statement is false. You have no Scriptural basis for such a statement.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:24-25 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
--By Him all things consist. They are held together with the word of his power.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
--What has been given to Jesus?

The "world" is the "cosmos" or this world system. It is that world that God hates.

James 4:4 Ye adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Christ still has authority over the world. He died for world (John 3:16). Satan can not do one thing without God's permission which makes God sovereign.
This is demonstrated in the Book of Job. You need to study the first chapter. Satan needed God's permission in order to attack Job. God is sovereign. The Bible teaches that it is God that sets up governments, and pulls down governments. God is always in control. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be God.

No, we are called of God. We remain in this world, but called of God to be a witness for Him. We are not of this world but in this world to be a witness to this world.

Perhaps much of what happens is "of Satan." That may be true.
Perhaps much of what happens is because of man's depraved heart. That may be true.
But that does not deny the sovereignty of God. Nor does it deny the free-will of man. God is still in control. He has set his own time-table, and things will happen according to His schedule. Much of his schedule is revealed to us in the Book of Revelation, though we know not the time, date, hour, etc. No one knows when the return of Christ will be. But God has set in order a series of events revealed for us in the Book of Revelation. He has sovereignly been working through his people throughout the course of history. And within that course of history he has given mankind a choice: to choose to do good or evil; to choose Christ or reject Him. That choice has been clearly set forth in the lives of many individuals:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
--Joshua made a deliberate choice in his life to serve the Lord. What about you?

Excuse the harshness of the statement, but that is just an ignorant statement to make. Because God is sovereign does not negate the other attributes of God such as his graciousness, love and mercy. His attributes do not contradict each other, and there are many here that resent you calling his attributes (such as being sovereign) a myth. Cool your language.

 

Again, his attributes do NOT contradict each other.

Romans 9:20-22 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
--These verses show the sovereignty of God. He will have mercy upon whom he chooses. That is sovereignty. And who are you that should speak against God?
You are simply a lump of clay in the potter's hand. God is sovereign and he can do with you whatever he wants to. You deserve nothing but Hell itself. You are not worthy of the least bit of his grace. However, by his grace he stretches out his hand to you and offers you the gift of eternal life through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ--for God is no respector of persons. You don't deserve it, but he offers it to you anyway. We deserve nothing but the wrath of God. Are you not glad that God is still in control and it is Christ that defeated Satan on the cross?

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
--How unsearchable are his judgements--but you know them. Right?
His ways are past finding out. But you have found them out. Right?
Who hath known the mind of the Lord? Arminius of course!
Who hath been his cousellor? Do we dare say that Arminius claims to be?
Don't you think that your post is a tad bit arrogant?
God is infinite. Do you claim to understand an infinite God with your finite mind?

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
--You still claim to know his thoughts and his ways?
--Notice how these verses also speak to the sovereignty of God.

To call God "a sadistic child abuser" is blasphemy, and has really crossed the line. You need help.

What blasphemy? The so-called blasphemy of beleiving in the attributes of God. Something here is wrong.

I am not a Calvinist. But I do not remember any Calvinist stating that God is the author of sin. Either way that is not what that passage teaches; it is far from it.

He said "Let no man say, I am tempted of God." He did not say: "Let no man say such things." Now who is changing the Word of God. That is heresy. And a stiff warning is given in Rev.22 about those who do such things.
James is not the author of faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So what are you insinuating? That Calvinists think all these evils are good things. The Bible does say:
"All things work together for good, to them that love God, to them that are called according to his purpose." And that includes sickness, death, assasnations, death by drunkenss, etc. All things work together for God. I ask again: Do you know the mind of the Lord? Are you his counsellor?

Paul was afflicted with a thorn in the flesh (probably an eye disease or some other physical affliction). God would not heal it. It was sent from God. God's answer to Paul--"My grace is sufficient for you."
Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus. Why couldn't he heal him when he had healed others?
He told Timothy to talke a little "wine" for thy stomachs sake and thy oft infirmities. That indicates that Timothy was often sick. Why couldn't Paul heal him.
Epaphroditus, it says was sick, even nigh unto death. He was very sick. Why couldn't Paul heal him? I will tell you why. It wasn't God's will. It was all for God's good, and for God's glory. The sickness was of God, and not from the devil. Here is another case just in case you don't believe the above.

John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
--What was the cause of the sickness? The parents? The man himself? The devil? NO! None of the above. Jesus said the reason that this man was sick was that the works of God should be made manifest in him. That is why. It was God's will for him to be blind from his birth. Those are the words of Christ.

Actually you have given me nothing at all. You have thrown around a few references, but how much Scripture did you actually post?

The devil did not bring sin into this world.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--There is free will. Adam chose to sin. He could not blame it on Eve, and neither one of them could blame it on the devil. It was their choice to sin. If you don't believe that you don't believe the Bible. Romans 5:12 clearly states that sin entered the world through Adam.

The devil doesn't control anyone. The implication there is that every unsaved person is demon-possessed. That is control. But it is not reality. Satan has influence in this world but not control. Man still has a choice in this world to choose Christ. God still sits on his throne and is ultimately in control of all things. Satan can do nothing without the permission of God. God knows exactly what is going on. He is omniscient and omnipotent. Do not take away from the attributes of God.

Dpn't know what you are talking about here. I am saved, but I am still in this world. I have not been "translated" as Enoch was. You better define your terms better.

More accurately he is referred to as a prince--the prince of the power of the air.

I am amazed at you very poor grasp of Scripture and your downright blasphemous charges against God. God--"a sadistic child abuser!" Unbelievable!

 

Well DK, it appears you suffer from an inability to understand English or you Do not read carefully. I never said the true God is a child abuser. I am arguing against that very thing! The “god” of Calvinism is! I quoted James One PROPERLY. I “added” nothing to it, I barely expounded it. Your accusation is from the pit. You are simply too emotional to reason, and so you are halluncinating, and wasting cyberspace writing a polemic against what I don’t believe and didn’t say! Half your post is an utter waste of time.

Apparenlty you didn’t read the threadstarter by Beloved where he said:

Now then, do you believe that Satanic vomit, yes or no? Why did you not read the whole thread before jumping in? Proverbs says he who answers a matter before he hears it exalts folly. Go look up that word. You are guilty.

Beloved ascribes sin DIRECTLY TO GOD. That is blasphemy of the highest sort, and the highest form of "doctrines of devils" to ever come down the pike. Deal with that, and either pay attention to exactly what people write, what they were responding to, or take an English comprehension course. Your post is utter folly.

And just to show you YOU DON'T even know what you are talking about when you do actually respond to what I did say, tell me what the implications are when Satan is called:

a prince.
a god
power
authority
a seat
and finally, when the Devil tempted our Lord, he said:

Luke 4:
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto
him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the
glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I
will I give it.4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

So, when did the Devil get all this power and the kingdoms of the world? When was it "delivered unto" him??? And he too can "give" it away??? Explain!

Lets see some exegesis and not your pontifications please.

As far as Sovereignty, on another thread I said:

That is what the Bible teaches, not Calvin's demeted view of Sovereignty, as espoused by Beloved. The above is the teaching of Scripture, like it or lump it.

 

Do you believe everything Satan tells you? :BangHead:
Who had the authority? Christ or Satan? Satan did not have that authority in the first place. He is the father of liars.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

You actually beleive that Satan had power to give to Christ? Amazing!

 

Dk:

If you are going to talk like you are some kind of theologian, sooner or later you have to demonstrate proof that it is so.

In Daniel 10, an angel appeared to him and said:

10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand
the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee
am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood
trembling.
10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that
thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself
before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy
words.
10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and
twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to
help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy
people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

The "prince" of Persia??? And he resisted this angel from bringing the answer to Daniel for TWENTY ONE DAYS??? And he had to get help from Michael to overcome this principality???

So there are demons over nations, and they can fight God's angels, apparently with great effect. How did they get into those placesof authority??? You need to think before you answer.

And you also don't seem to realize that if the offer Satan gave was not genuine, then neither was the temptation. Our Lord faced a genuine temptation, and he resisted it. Satan did not lie, for what he desired was far greater than what he was willing to give up. What the Devil said lines up with what Daniel 10 says, and the other things I posted. He is a prince, a god, has power, authority a seat, and the whole world lies in his bondage-1Joun 5:19, Eph 2:1-4.

I would love to see you exegete those two verses and show how they don't mean everyone on this earth, except Christians walk according to the spirit of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air, and are not in his power.

And the question of HOW he got this authority in the first place.

 

Wonder why the devil has to be overcome, if he has no power. If the devil doesn't have any power, then man would never of sinned in the first place and none of us would even have to die the natural death. Of course the devil has a great drawing power and its called "sin" of which men enjoy the pleasures of for a season, but then will have to pay the price.

Hbr 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How could there be a warfare within a man if not for the messenger of Satan, a thorn in the flesh.

 

I notice you have not addressed the fact that what you are saying directly contradicts the clear teaching of scripture in Gen. 1:31.

God saw what He made and it was "good". The hebrew word is "tov". It means it had the quality of "goodness", not evil. You are attempting to change the meaning of the Words of Scripture.

Isa: 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil, good and good, evil;"

peace to youraying:

 

Satan didn't have the authority. I told you that already.
I tell you what. I will give you my mailing address. You send me a valid money order for $1,000.00, and when I receive it I will send you $10,000.00 worth of valuable jewels (mostly diamond and gold). Is that a deal?
Sounds good doesn't it? The trouble with that "temptation" is that I have no "power" or "authority" to give you any jewels whatsoever because I don't own any, but I sure would take your money. Satan uses this ploy all the time. He takes what you have without giving back. He didn't have the power to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. They weren't his to give.

It was an offer of the Kingdom (as in the Millennial Kingdom), sooner than the time appointed. Christ would thus avoid the sufferings of the cross. Some day Christ will rule all the kingdoms of the world. But those kingdoms will not be handed to him by Satan. In fact during that time Satan will be bound for 1000 years. That was the temptation--along with the worship of Satan. Satan did not have the power to deliver the goods.
A person can tempt with deceit. What moral obligation does Satan have to be "an honest tempter?" :rolleyes"

 

Amen! Preach it!

And excellent point. Instead of God "authoring the mess" or "authoring rebellion" or "authoring failure" He is the God that is the "author of Salvation" and the "author of Paradise".

He is "JUST" AND the "JUSTIFIER" of those who have faith in Him.

God sovereignly "chose" to create and sustain and "free will system".


Creation was HIS - it was HIS to do with as He pleased and HE chose to create a free will system.

Hence the great price paid for permitting Lucifer's choice of rebellion - the loss of 1/3 of the Angels.

Hence the great price paid for permitting Eve's choice of Rebellion - the loss of Adam and the entire human race.

Henc the great price paid for Israel's choice of Rebellion -

In Christ,

Bob

 

Glarlingly obvious and true Brother Bob!!

In Eph 6 our "WARFARE" continues and the ONLY way we STAND is "HAVING DONE EVERYTHING - STAND FIRM" having put on the FULL armor of God SO THAT you MAY STAND.

The ROARING LION problem is a NT fact!

Preach it!

Well said sir!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ahh what a pleasure to see bulls-eye after bulls-eye hit by the people of God!

Right on - preach it!

in Christ,

Bob