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Featured Did He Really Know You?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Aaron, Feb 3, 2020.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Do any noncalvinists really believe that anyone today was on His mind? That He truly has a specific purpose and plan (not a generic one) for any individual's life?

    Some will say yes because of His omniscience, His "looking down the corridors of time" (LOL). But you need to be careful, because asserting He knew each one who was conceived also means that He knew which ones whose conception was thwarted, meaning one of two things.

    1) You're here by happenstance, a fortuitous turn of events influencing the plans (or failures) of corrupt individuals exercising their free will. Meaning, He didn't really plan for your existence, He just knew the roll of the dice and kinda dropped you into His plan, for good or for ill depending on the degree inherent merit you possess by nature and by which you made the decision to choose Him. (And you are kinda capitulating to Calvinism because His knowing meant it was His choice in allowing one He knew would exist to be prevented by the corruption of men, so He's still sovereign in salvation.)

    2) You have to adopt the quasi paganistic view of God in time who cannot tell the future.
     
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  2. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Active Member

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    A god who knows the future, but does not determine the future is not God Almighty.
    God actually declares things to be what they are before they are.

    Isaiah 46
    8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
    Recall to mind, O you transgressors.

    9 Remember the former things of old,
    For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like Me,

    10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
    And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
    Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
    And I will do all My pleasure,’
     
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  3. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Active Member

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    Romans 4
    16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

    17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

    18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, absolutely.
     
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  5. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    You asked a good question. I must think on the answer some more. I'll follow this discussion with interest.
     
  6. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Active Member

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    The 'seed' Paul is speaking of in Romans 4 are the children of the promise God promised to Abraham, as
    God spoke according to Isaac your descendants shall be the called, so shall your descendants be. Those descendants are not those children born according to the flesh.
    Romans 9
    6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
    7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
    8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

    So we see the express purpose of God is to save the seed He promised to Abraham, born according to the Spirit according to His will, they are the ones who will inherit salvation. Right there is the predestining of individuals to be the saved. Those who are of God to be saved are given as was Isaac was to be children of Abraham.

    Jesus says the same thing in John 8.

    39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
    Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

    Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

    They could not believe because they were not Abraham's children, as Issac was as having been given to Abraham as his children. God mentions this even further in Hebrews 2

    10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
    “I will declare Your name to My brethren;
    In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
    13 And again:
    “I will put My trust in Him.”
    And again:
    “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

    14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood,
    He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
     
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  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    So, when was this plan for the individual's life formed?
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It was never formed. God is not a person that He sits and figures things out. IMHO the mind of God and God's plans are eternal because God is eternal. Only a less than omniscient God would have to form plans.
     
  9. Benyamin

    Benyamin New Member

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    I'm no Tulip Calvinist, (the 'L' is my problem point, 1 John 2:2).
    But I have never in my life doubted that God has had a plan for me. My potential rebellion against God's plan for my life doesn't diminish his sovereignty, in my opinion. Scripture says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. According to that passage, what God is willing is not always perfectly accomplished, since obviously not all are coming to repentance. I'm sure this topic is on the board somewhere...but how do Calvinists interpret that verse? (2 Peter 3:9).
     
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  10. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    Basically this is asking humans (FINITE) to explain God (INFINITY).
    The absolute best one can do is to nibble around the edge & not get paranoid about the results - however reasonable OR unreasonable they may seem!!
    Sorta like when I was mowing & stirred up a yellow jacket nest right in the middle of my yard.
    I really don't think it would have done much good to try to explain to them why, if they would just move their nest to a different area, they would be safe & unmolested.
    I would say the gap in my logically conversing with them would be mere fraction of us trying to explain His actions; 'cept of course where it is more or less spelled out for us.

    MARANATHA
     
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  11. Benyamin

    Benyamin New Member

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    I like this
     
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  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    *rolls eyes*

    You're avoiding the question with a show of feigned humility. Because, 1) God is a Person...three Persons, actually, and 2) God made and formed things, plans being some of them.

    So let me ask the question a different way. When was JonC created?
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not at all. That is exactly my position (my view of omniscience is that God knows all things from beginning to end).

    I was created about 9 months before I was born when I was formed in my mother's womb. This is not the date I became known to God, however. I believe God knew all of us prior to creation.
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Which is a non-view actually.

    That's the common misconception (no pun intended.) You are not a recent creation. You were conceived nine months before your birth, but you were created in Adam on the Sixth Day. God is not still creating. He rested from Creation on the Seventh Day.

    So how is it, that you came to be born, and not like one who would have been a descendant of a family that perished in the Flood? Were you just lucky? Or did God preserve you?
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know this is what you believe (others have expressed the same thing). I disagree.

    I am not sure why you ask how I came to be born. Basically, when a man loves a woman....well, there are books out there.
     
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  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Except that it's kinda what the Bible says. The Bible says God rested from all His creation, but you're saying no, He just took a breather. He's still creating.

    But I get it. You do have to deny much of Scripture to deny God's sovereignty in your salvation.

    Well, there's rape, too. A lot of people are conceived in rape, and then are born despite Roe v Wade.

    My question was how is it that you are a descendant of Noah, and not cut off as those who would have been descendants of families who perished in the Flood? Or of a myriad of those who died in wars and famines and other judgments?

    But you've anwered. God didn't preserve you. You were just lucky.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I also believe God created us in Christ (that we are new creations, born again), so that is not the only place we disagree.

    I do not understand your question. I was born in 1968 in accord with God's plan that I be born in 1968. I can't answer what you are asking as your question does not make sense to me.

    All I am saying (what you call a non-answer) is that God's plan is eternal because God is eternal. It has no start date.
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You're still avoiding the question.

    There are only two options. You're here by God's determination, or you're here by chance. Which is it?
     
    #18 Aaron, Feb 5, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  19. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Active Member

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    We were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world, which is when our purpose was given to us, note 2 Timothy 1:9, but we were created in time as new creations in Christ at the time of God's choosing for us to fulfil His purposes, note Galatians 1:15-16, God chooses the time for when He reveals Christ in us. This is a very important concept as it gives meaning to our supernatural existence at the hand of God our Creator.

    2 Timothy 1
    8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

    Galatians 1
    11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
    13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
    15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

    And Ephesians 1
    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
    To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
    2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
     
  20. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    WOW!!!!
    You sound just like an atheist who hates God (who doesn't exist!) so much he complains about everything He (God) does.
    I don't know your relation with God, but you are awfully brazen to LIMIT God's choices to what YOU consider the only options.:eek:
    IIRC, Jesus had something to say about those who thought they were so smart!?!?
    Again, I don't know you, but you seem to be a perfect example of an old adage:
    "He's been educated beyond his intelligence."
     
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