Did jesus Come In the "Likeness" Or "Exactness" of Human Flesh?

Here is Part of what Paul said coupled with some noted scholars I list a few below,

Romans 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Here is what I believe and have seen many noted scholars like Wallvoord, Chafer for two teach. When you were an unbeliever you were a slave to your sin nature.
Verse 11 says you died to sin, that is you died to the domination of the sin nature you have in you and you are now alive (Spiritually) through Jesus Christ.
Verse 12 let not sin reign, the believer is not to allow the sin nature to gain control of his life, many do and are in carnality or the flesh. Many obey the lust of that the Old Sin Nature brings back in their lives.
Verse 13 Paul is again saying don't yeild to the Old Nature of sin but serve God through the new nature which is through Christ and by the control of the Holy Spirit. Eph. 5:18 "be ye not drunk (controlled) with wine but be filled (controlled by) with the Spirit." this verse (EPH 5:18) is the Christians way of Life being filled with the Spirit can't go wrong as a believer letting the Spirit control your life.
Verse 14 Sin cannot have dominon over your life anymore, but you can choose to serve it and many do see verse 12, Paul again says you must choose to yield to the Spirit.
Verse 15 self explanatory we shouldn't sin because we aren't under the law.
Verse 16 If you yield to the Old Sin Nature you are it's servant, sin fior the believer brings death, this death I believe is temporal death, God will not hear our prayers and blessings are withheld until we confess and turn back to Him. He chastens us in this time, now if we practice a life of confession 1st John 1:9 then we avoid prolonged periods of temporal death and avoid chastening. Confession of sin for the believer should be immediate, the moment you realize you have sinned. Then you are in obedience unto righteousness, living your life guided by the spirit and in fellowship, loss of answers to prayer and blessing in your life is loss of fellowship.
Verse 17 You have been saved and the Old Sin Nature is no longer dominating your life, you who are believers have obeyed the call of the Holy Spirit and have been saved, and the truth of Christ Effacacious work (doctrine) the work of Christ delievered you by your faith.
Verse 18 You and I as believers were bought out of the slave market of sin, the Old nature no longer our master, we are to follow our new master righteous. Do all the time, every minute of every day, most of us don't, most of us sin in some form every day, mental attittude, sins of omission or the sins of commission, in some form we sin.
Romans 7: 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul is reiterrating the facts of Romans 6 here, reaffirming that even in his life the sin nature cause him to sin in his fleshly body in his soul dwelleth no good thing, that is the Old Nature to sin. He says he did the evil he did not want to do, he too gave into the old nature and sinned but Paul continually confessed that sin and kept on moving.
So the bible teaches you have an old sin nature, Paul made it very clear here in Romans 6 and 7. You need to dig into scripture and look into reference books not just those you were told by someone to look into but those who aren't necessarily recommended study both views with an open heart and let the Holy Spirit show you which is true. If you go into it with your preconceived beliefs then you will be like Nicodemous. 1 Peter 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

Our spirit comes from God, not our earthly father.

Zech 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, AND FORMETH THE SPIRIT OF MAN WITHIN HIM.

Num 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, THE GOD OF THE SPIRITS OF ALL FLESH, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Num 27:15 And Moses spake unto the LORD, saying, 16 Let the LORD, THE GOD OF THE SPIRITS OF ALL FLESH, set a man over the congregation.

We also do not receive our soul from our earthly father, it was made by God as well.

Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, AND THE SOULS WHICH I HAVE MADE.

We do not receive our spirit and soul from our earthly father, they are formed within us by God. So, if you are correct, then God made us with evil spirits and souls.

Is this what you believe?

 

I just showed from scripture that we don't inherit our spirit and soul from our parents, God makes our spirit and soul.

You didn't answer the question, does God make us with evil spirits and souls?

 

You also said this:

This is wrong. If our soul came from God then all men and women would be born as dead corpses with no life in them. Animals have souls. It is the life in them. The word "nephesh" translated soul in the OT is used in Gen.1:24, as it describes "living creature." God gave man a spirit which sets him apart from the animal kingdom. It is the spirit that is able to communicate with God. Of course his mind is far more developed and made also in the image of God.

Here you have three figures of speech--metaphors. Not a good verse to prove your point. Did God stretch out the heavens? No. He created them by the word of His power. He spoke and it was done. The same with the earth. He didn't have to "lay the foundation" first. He spoke it into existence. He is speaking in metaphorical language here which cannot prove that God forms the Spirit of man, at least not from this verse. Here is how Young translates this verse:

The burden of a word of Jehovah on Israel. An affirmation of Jehovah, Stretching out heaven, and founding earth, And forming the spirit of man in his midst. (Zechariah 12:1)
--"and forming" indicating an action that still continues.

The two phrases are the same. It seems to be a way of addressing God. And God is the God of the spirits of all flesh. That doesn't prove anything. He is the God of all the rocks, rivers, and mountains also. He is the God of creation.

If it were you would have been born dead. Your soul is the life you received at birth.

Souls in this context simply refer to people. God made the people that he is referring to.

Is that what you believe? Are you a dead corpse having no life given to you by your mother when you were born, after having carried you for nine months? And then, just to think, that soul and spirit are both dead and evil when it was born, and thus needed to be born again. You were estranged from God, dead in your sins and trespasses, in need of a Savior, apart from God, having the wrath of God abiding on you. You were in a very sad and desperate condition (both soul and spirit), until you came to Christ. One could accurately say--you were both spiritually dead and desperately wicked (Eph.2:1; Jer.17:9).

 

DHK, I cannot make heads or tails of what you said there. Why would we be born dead if our souls came from God?

And yes, I believe God stretched out the heavens. I am a young earth creationist and do not believe in the Big Bang, but it has SOME merit (but not much). The greatest objection cosmologists had with the BB Theory is that it supported scripture. They wanted nothing of that, but evidence supports space was stretched out just as the scriptures say.

Back to our discussion...

That unsaved man can do good is shown in Jer 34. Now, this story shows Israel turning and doing right in God's sight, but then turning again and doing wrong. Nevertheless, for awhile they did right.

Jer 34:15 And ye were now turned, AND HAD DONE RIGHT IN MY SIGHT, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and ye had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name.

I can't quote the whole chapter (on a mobile phone), but in vs. 10 it says the princes turned and obeyed God, and in vs. 15 it says they did right IN MY SIGHT (God's).

Now, they did turn back quickly and do wrong again, but for awhile they were obedient and did that which was right in God's sight.

I perfectly agree that all men are sinners, but when the scriptures say there is none righteous, and none that do good, it is speaking of being 100% perfectly good. This is why Jesus said there is none good but God (100% righteous) and yet said evil men can give good gifts. According to your view, man cannot give good gifts.

We also have the account of Cain where God said if he would do well, he would be accepted. God does not accept evil.

 

Literally, our souls don't come from God. Our soul is the life that comes from our parents, specifically the mother as she keeps the child alive in the womb, and then especially at birth when the child enters the world. The soul, every person has, and every animal has. It has breathe. It is the result of procreation.
It is the spirit that comes from God.
I only agree in this sense that ultimately all things come from God.
But if we are to differentiate between soul and spirit, the soul comes from the parent. If there is no life, no soul, then the parent delivers a dead corpse, right?

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. (Psalms 33:6)

He spoke things into existence. He didn't have to take the time to "stretch out" the heavens. That is a phrase more given to an evolutionist if taken literally. It is a figurative expression. The YEC would use the word or expression "ex nihilo." He created out of nothing. He didn't need a process. He spoke and it was done.

CONTEXT:
The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which passed between the parts of the calf; (Jeremiah 34:19)
--He is speaking to his chosen people, not to the Gentiles.

You are using Scripture out of context. God is referring to His chosen people Israel, not the pagans.
There is none that doeth good; no, not one. Why argue with Scripture?

But he didn't do well. He murdered and demonstrated that he was not saved.

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. (1 John 3:12)

 

God himself said he stretched the heavens out, I believe him.

As for the child, God gives them their soul and spirit at the moment of conception. Are you saying a child is not alive until they take a breath? That's nonsense.

And I see no difference between a Jew or Gentile, I have given you examples of both who did good things while unsaved. What difference does being Jewish make if ALL men are unable to do any good thing? So, your reasoning makes no sense at all.

Another example of an unsaved person who did some things right in God's sight is king Amaziah in 2 Chr 25. In verse 2 it says he did that which was right in God's sight, but not with a perfect heart. But in vs. 14 we see him bowing down and worshipping false gods. Nevertheless, vs. 27 says;

2 Chr 25:27 Now after the time that Amaziah DID TURN AWAY FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, they made a conspiracy against him in Jerusalem; and he fled to Lachish: but they sent to Lachish after him, and slew him there.

So, we see that Amaziah followed the Lord and did some things right in God's sight, yet he worshipped idols and false gods. Because of this God caused him to be defeated in battle, which led to his assasination.

To deny that unsaved men cannot do some things acceptable with God is unscriptural, and I have showed you several examples from scripture. I can show you more, but if you will not believe one proof, you will not believe many.

 

Jesus came in the very fashion we do. His flesh felt the pains when they plucked the beard from His sweet face, felt the spikes being driven in His hands and feet, when they smacked Him, etc. But He never had a "sin nature", never succumbed to the temptations of sins, etc. He was the sin sacrifice prophesied of old. Read Exodus 12, and how God told Moses to take a lamb without spot or blemish. He had to be sinless in order to appease God's wrath concerning sin.

Jesus was also the scapegoat spoken of in Leviticus 16, when Aaron was to place both hands upon it's head, and confess all the sins of Israel on it, and then it was led into the wilderness by the hands of a fit man. He was our scapegoat, because He became sin for us(making Him a "type" of "goat"), though He Himself never sinned.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Hi winman, we are complex beings, more than soul and spirit, you left out the flesh (sarx).

Yielding to its demands is the source of human evil. It is not from God.
Paul said there was no good thing dwelling in his flesh.

Presumably if Adam had not sinned neither would we because through him sin and death passed unto all of us. No one would die in infancy therefore if they were not sinners.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

Personally I don't like the phrase "original sin" because of the distortion of the concept of original sin made by the Church of Rome.

The propensity of sin and the ability to sin has been passed upon all because of Adam.

Romans 5:12 must be explained in a different light than its plain and evident meaning if we are not sinners from conception.

Sin is a universal and unlearned behavior of the human race down to the individual level.

One apple appearing on a tree proves the tree was an apple tree all along.

One sin proves a child a sinner else he could not sin.

Children will eventually incur guilt and realize that they are sinful.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned (past tense), and come short of the glory of God;​

You point to the good things of which men are capable but all the good works of all of humanity cannot save one soul because in reality, though God requires them of unregenerate humanity on the horizontal level, He sees then as fillthy rags in terms of our salvation on the verticle level.

Also Christ is different than we in that though He was made of a woman under the law, He had a virgin birth which none of us had. Also He existed from eternity with the Father and the Holy Spirit which none of us have experienced.

In the context of the Book to the Hebrews He was tempted as all of us, however He never yielded to the demands of the flesh the greatest of the differences.

HankD

 

Hank, I am not denying that all men sin, I firmly believe that. But I do disagree we are born that way. You don't have to have a sin nature to sin, Adam and Eve prove that. They were created VERY GOOD and had no sin nature, yet they were easily tempted, and both sinned.

So, I ask you, do the scriptures show a sin nature necessary to sin?

But what was present and caused sin? TEMPTATION.

That we do not get our soul and spirit from our parents is shown by Adam himself;

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man.

Did Adam say that Eve got her soul and spirit from him? NO.

I do not believe Adam's sin was passed to us simply because God clearly said the son shall not bear the sin of his father. Folks take a verse like Rom 5:12 and wrest it to say what it does not say, and then completely overlook Eze 18:20 that is plain as day, and directly addresses this issue. God is DIRECTLY saying the son shall not bear the sin of his father, and folks ignore this. I'm sorry, but I cannot ignore this.

I agree with you that it only takes one sin to make any person a sinner. Just one sin and we are worthy of the wages of sin, death. Just one sin and we come short of the glory of God.

This is why I believe when the scriptures say there is none good, none righteous, it is speaking of 100% perfection. We are being compared to God and we all come short.

But the scriptures do not say we are utterly unable to do some good, and I have showed several examples from scripture. Jesus himself said that we who are evil can give good gifts, but according to Calvinism the unregenerate man can do no good thing. Again, I am sorry, but I choose to believe Jesus, not Augustine and Calvin.

 

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.​

First, I agree with the statement that we don't bear the iniquity of Adam and that is why I believe children, should they die an untimely death, are regenerated at death and go to be with the Lord.

The word "bear" in Ezekiel 18:20 has the meaning of carrying the weight of the sin, bear the penalty, or to incur the guillt of the sin.

The propensity and ability to sin has been passed on to us by Adam and in that light is part of our very nature. No one teaches their children to do evil, it is an unlearned activity and universal to humanity.

Guilt however is not incurred until the knowledge of good and evil is present through the force of law.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.​

"revived" - it was already there but dormant.

Secondly, I also agree that the unsaved can do good in God's sight and in fact, He requires it on the horizontal level:

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.​

However as I explained previously, all the good works of all lost humankind are seen by God as "filthy rags" when viewed in the light of salvation's requirement at the verticle level.

You don't need to respond as I know your position and I don't feel that you are "unspiritual", but just hold a different view in this matter.

HankD

 

Well, I do want to respond.

I have several issues with believeing we inherit a sin nature. Foremost is that the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus took on OUR NATURE and was made like unto his brethren IN ALL THINGS, and was tempted IN ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin (Heb 2:14-18, Heb 4:15).

Now, this nature must have been inherited from Mary, as the scriptures clearly say God cannot be tempted with evil (Jam 1:13).

So, the fact that Jesus could be tempted at all proves he inherited his nature from his mother who was a sinner, regardless of the false doctrine Catholics hold. She is recorded giving a sin offering and called Jesus her saviour.

I just can't accept that Jesus has a sin nature. I do not like that term, it is never mentioned in scripture even once. The scriptures say we are flesh, and that Jesus is come in the flesh.

I don't like to say we have a propensity to sin either. I rather believe we are weak, or easily tempted. Remember when the disciples could not stay awake and pray they not enter into temptation? Jesus said their spirit was indeed willing, but the flesh was weak.

And Adam and Eve prove you do not have to have a sin nature to sin, they were created very good, yet both were easily tempted and sinned. They were flesh, and they were weak.

If they lived in a pure world yet were so easily tempted and sinned, is it any wonder that we who are born into a very wicked world are easily tempted and sin?

And in my view, this is what David meant when he said he was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did his mother conceive him. He was speaking of being born into a sinful world. I have read that this is exactly what the ancient Jews interpreted this verse to mean.

 

OK, I am curious winman, I don't remember seeing your take on Romans 5:12, perhaps you have given your interpretation but either I did not see it or I have forgotten.

Would you mind giving me what you believe it is saying, especially where it says that death (and babies can and do die) which is the end result of sin - passed upon all.

Is it not so that if innocent babies are not sinners by birth then not one of them could die until they incurred the guilt of their sin?

If we/they are just like Adam and Eve then "thou shalt surely die" must apply to them as well. In other words they would/could not die until they sinned.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Obviously Jesus is the exception being born of a virgin (unlike any of us).
In addition, though He was not worthy of death, He willingly took the death of the cross upon Himself to be our substitute.​

Personally I don't think you put the correct emphasis upon the necessity of the virgin birth.

The flesh has desires which in and of themselves are not sinful.
They are sinful when they are in conflict with the will of God.​

No doubt Jesus flesh affected Him (e.g. desire to have a mate and family) seeing that He was tempted in all points as we but He would not respond to that desire because it was not His Father's purpose for Him to come in the flesh as a human being but to be an atonement for our sins.​

Thanks
HankD​

 

Hank animals die and they do not sin, in fact they do not even have sin natures and are unable to sin. In fact a sinless Christ still died.

 

Ok first, being born of a virgin would not prevent one from inheriting a sin nature, virgins are sinners just like everyone else. The Catholics recognized this, and so invented the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception that teaches by a special grace of God that Mary was born without original sin. See what happens when you invent one false doctrine? You have to invent another and another to cover problems that arise.

Jesus did share Mary's nature, the fact that he could be tempted proves this, as God cannot be tempted with evil (Jam 1:13).

Babies are difficult to explain for everyone. I believe the scriptures show babies innocent, having done neither good or evil. We see this with Esau and Jacob when they were in Rebecca's womb.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having DONE any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

So, babies are not sinners. Does this mean they do not need Christ? NO.

Babies need Christ for two reasons I believe. #1 they are under the curse God pronounced in Gen 3:17-19. This curse did pass on everyone, just as a careless bus driver who drives off a cliff and kills all the passengers on his bus. Sin has consequences that often affects others around us, thus the sin of the father visiting to the third and fourth generations. Bad (or good) decisions and sins we commit today affect our children, grandchildren, and even our great grandchildren. I live a good life in America today because of the decisions of my great great grandparents to come to America.

Anyway, Jesus's blood atoned for this sin that brought corruption upon the whole universe. Even animals die, and they are not capable of sin. This curse will be removed (Rev 22:3)

continued...

 

#2 While I believe Rom 9:11 teaches that babies have done no evil and are therefore sinless, it also says they have done no good and have no righteousness. There is nothing in them to make them worthy of heaven. So, just like us, they need Jesus's righteousness imputed to them.

A person will argue that babies have no faith, and therefore cannot have Christ's righteousness imputed to them, but I am not so sure. Jesus said little children believe in him.

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones WHICH BELIEVE IN ME, it were better that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

So, perhaps babies and little children have a degree of faith by God given instinct.

But also note that Jesus warns against those who OFFEND little children. I believe this is speaking of us influencing or tempting children to sin as Satan did to Eve in the garden.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto THE WORLD because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe unto that man by whom the offence cometh!

This is a stern warning from Jesus, we should be very careful not to offend children. I believe this not only means not harming them, but also not tempting, influencing, or teaching them to sin.

But note offences are necessary. I personally believe this means God must allow men to sin to maintain free will. Without free will there can be no love. God wants people who choose to love him of their own free will, not robots or puppets. But this same free will that enables love also enables rebellion and sin. But it must be so to have love.

 

Where there is not law there is no sin.
Sin is a transgression of the law.
Which law? God's law. God never imposed any moral law on animals. Therefore they cannot sin, for it is impossible for them to break a law that they do not have. It was Paul who said:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Romans 7:7)

Also, with the Fall, the curse came upon the entire creation. Not one part of God's creation was not affected by the Fall. It all was.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Romans 8:22)

 

You say this over and over again as if it is truth. It is your opinion, unsubstantiated. Being born of a virgin allowed Christ to escape the sin nature that is passed on by Adam, and by every male. It is not passed on through the female.

You seem to think that such passages as Gen:3:15; Isa.7:14; Gal.4:4 are totally irrelevant. God just put them in there for the good of His health.

Why was Christ born of the seed of the woman? Why was that so important in Genesis 3:15? It refers to the virgin birth, yes? But why? Because Christ would not be a partaker of the fallen nature, the Adamic nature that Adam (from this point onward) would be passing on to the entire human race.

Why in Isa.7:14 is the prophecy of a virgin birth so important? God could have used another sign for Ahaz. But he didn't. It was a prophecy concerning the virgin birth. And that fact is important because Christ could not be born just to any woman, but to a virgin. Otherwise it would not be a sign. The other reason is that that was the method God chose for him to escape the sin nature of man. If that did not happen he would be born with a sin nature like you and I and would be unfit to die for our sins. God would be born a sinner, rendering him a useless sacrifice, something that would be rejected as a sacrifice in the OT. The sacrifice had to be without blemish.

In Gal.4:4, Paul goes to great lengths to say that Christ was "made of a woman." He escaped the sin nature. God used a virgin, a vessel, that Christ could enter into this world unscathed by sin. This is the only way that he would be able to die for our sins. These Scriptures are not irrelevant. They teach some great truths, and for a reason.