Did Jesus debate; were he and Paul ever harsh?

I agree! Thank you Guy....most insightful Brother.

 

Why is that the only understanding? I see a Christian brother pulling another brother aside to correct him. The face to face encounter could have been due to him not wanting to embarrass him...he could have been talking in a low voice at a close proximity. I do this to my son when we are out and he is being disobedient. I'll get real close to him and talk in a stern but quiet voice only he and I can hear. My point gets across and the everyone present doesn't have to hear what I'm saying.

Please, realize your "my understanding can be the only correct understanding" is simply not true and let it go.

 

glfrederick...

I appreciate your wisdom.

 

I think we can all learn a lesson about how to speak the truth in love. I realize that I have failed miserably sometimes. There's no excuse, I know better. I hope you all will forgive me.

 

Let's not repost what we deem to be dirty laundry for all to see, yet again afresh. Instead move on and grow.

 

Let me think about that one for a while...

 

Now I would like to say this in love. I don't think that we should judge our Lord as to whether He was harsh. Nor do we have the right.

Everything Jesus ever did was in truth, in righteousness, out of love for His creation, and because He is the only God, possessing all wisdom and truth and has complete and total authority over everything and everyone.

We are not in a position to question the behavior of our Lord, master, teacher and Savior.

And that is my opinion.

 

Bro,

You and I have had our differences, but despite that, I like you. So please do not take this as an attack. But you really should read the whole passage before responding; it is plain that this was a public confrontation. Read the next verses..

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

Paul literally stood up, got in Peter's face (don't think of this as a gangster kind of thing. It just means he went straight into him, directly, without pulling punches, in a very public way), and proclaimed that he was wrong.

 

That doesn't contradict anything I said. In fact, that would seem to support my understanding that before them all he confronted him "face to face"...not that he shouted that "face to face" before them all for all of them to hear.

BTW...you accusing me of not reading the whole passage before I responded is simply not true.

From the NASB which many here agree is the most literal translation... "14But when I saw that they (AI)were not straightforward about (AJ)the truth of the gospel, I said to (AK)Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, (AL)live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

 

Brother,

This would make no sense in light of the verse. The Greek phrase κατὰ πρόσωπον refers to a direct, confrontational encounter. Paul putting in that he did this "before them all", would be silly if it was not to all of them. He could have just left it out.

Also, it was not just Peter that did it. The other Jewish believers there joined Peter in his error. How would it be correct to pull Peter aside, when they were all doing it? And how would a "pulling aside" and a gentle whisper, use the Greek word anthistēmi, which means to strive with, or to fight against?

Bro, there is simply no way that that interpretation could fit. Just to check myself, I checked all of my commentaries. Not a single person interprets it that way. All of them say this was a vehement, open confrontation.

 

I will get to this. However, this is finals week, and you have given me a HUMONGOUS list here. But I can provide you with scriptural proofs. But you will have to wait a week. :thumbs:

 

Anthistēmi means simply to oppose, not necessarily to "fight against". At any rate whether it was open for all to hear, face to face where it was discussed only between the two of them, it has to be read into the text this was a vehement, chest bumping, finger pointing "You listen to me, and you listen good" confrontation.

Paul was talking to Peter in the first person, not addressing the whole group. I checked a few commentaries myself, and saw none that support a "vehement, open confrontation". Can you share your commentaries that say this?

 

The fact is that scripture is silent on if or even anything Peter may have or not have said. To interpret this as "last man standing", back and forth each "debating" their positions is complete conjecture.

 

Another reason I think it is illogical to assume Peter argued back and forth with Paul.

When reading this passage in context you realize that the very position that we are supposed to believe Peter would be so "harshly" arguing against Paul about is not even a position he believed, but in fact actually agreed with Paul.

The very next verse (12) we find out that "before certain men came from James, he (Peter) would eat with the gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of circumcision;"

It is very clear that Pater didn't oppose Paul's position, but rather gave in to good old fashion peer pressure. Paul called him on it in front of everyone ("in the presence of all" vs14) for being a hypocrite (vs13).

If we are to assume anything about how Peter may have acted, it is more logical to assume he was embarrassed and said little or nothing at all.

 

I agree completely, and that basis for my comments on that portion of Scripture. Since it is God breathed, I doubt the Holy Spirit would inspire a harsh confrontation being the intention of the passage. Whether "in their presence" means verbally so everyone could hear or private where the conversation took place "in their presence", it's really a moot point.

I still do not see the commentaries on this being the case, can someone help me out here?

 

I have exchanged personal messages with Havensdad and decided to withdraw my challenge of a debate. He is a student and should be applying his time to his studies, working to pay off his debt, build a nest egg--not debating an old man till both are blue in the face. I am just too old for such shenanigans. :sleeping_2:

However, a blue face may be nice at Wildcat games. :laugh:

...Bob

 

There is a lesson in this for the rest of us...

 

From Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament:

Quote from John Gill: