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Did Jesus desire evil in Gethsemane?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jasonlevene, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    There is also the theory that the resurrection was the answer to His prayers
    (ek thanatou-out of death).

    HankD
    </font>[/QUOTE]HankD, the Greek preposition in that case would be "apo," not "ek." When "ek" is used to mean resurrection, the word death is always plural: "raised from out of the dead ones."
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I know that.
    I've checked it out in my Dana and Mantey. [​IMG]

    Look at it as "raised/saved from out of the grave".

    As a witness to the world that the Father accepted His sacrifice.

    I'm not dogmatic about this. Just not sure what else it could mean if your view is not correct which seems weak as well.


    HankD
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I don't accept the view that Jesus was desiring to escape a premature death in Gethsemane for several reasons:

    first it woulda been a much-less-painful death.

    Next, the manner of His death was already known to Him, long before He was manifested in the flesh.

    Next, Jesus knew the sooner He died, the sooner He would resume His place in heaven. But His chief desire was to OBET HIS FATHER & fulfill all the missions He'd been sent to perform.

    NONE of the martyrs who were murdered for their faith wanted to die in the manner in which they died...but their desire to OBEY GOD and confess Jesus to their killers overrode all other concerns.
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Robycop3, everything you are saying proves my point.

    (1) He wanted the painful death on the cross rather than death in the garden. Exactly--that is why He prayed that "this cup"--death in the garden--pass from Him.

    (2) The manner of His death was known, so He didn't believe it to be God's will that He die in the garden. "Nevertheless, not my will but Thine."

    (3) As you say, His chief desire was "to OBEY HIS FATHER & fulfill all the missions He'd been sent to perform." Exactly! That is why He did not want to die in the garden, though He was close to death there because of His physical condition, hematridosis.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Try this on for size. Jesus had previously prophesied how He would die in John 12:32-33. If He was praying in the Garden that the Father would take away the cup of death on the cross, then it logically follows that Jesus was praying for Himself to become a false prophet!!

    If on the other hand He was praying in the garden to escape from death by hematridosis, then He was praying that He would be able to die on the cross and thus fulfill His own prophecy!
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    With all due respect, John, I don't think Jesus suffered hematridosis in the garden. Why? Please analyze Luke 22:44 closely, and you'll see that His sweat RESEMBLED great drops of blood. He and His disciples were in limited light, and an observer woulds seen profuse sweat dripping from His beard and nose. I work in a steel mill, and I know what profuse sweat is when I hafta work near 2000 degree metal...sweat drips off my chin & nose in large drops as if I had a leaky faucet on my head! I also had an amateus boxing "career" of several years, and an 11-year semipro football "career", and on one more than one occasion I sweatted most profusely, and if I had a nick or cut, I appeared to have bled out a gallon!

    But again, the key is that the Scripture says His sweat RESEMBLED great drops of blood. If it WERE blood, He woulda been a bloody mess when He was arrested, and Scripture would NOT have failed to have noted it.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    (already said)
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Hey, I see where you are coming from, robycop3. In my younger days I shed my share of blood and sweat. I've been knocked out in 4 sports: wrestling, judo, kung fu and karate! Of course that doesn't make me tough. Like the guy in the cowboy movie said, "He's not tough. The guy that gave him those scars is the tough one!" If we ever meet face to face I'll let you KO me so I can make it 5 sports. :D

    You do have a good point on the interpretation of this verse. I looked more carefully at the word translated "like," which is hosei. Your interpretation is certainly possible. The word does often mean "like." However, it has a different range of meaning from the English word "like," with the primary meaning being "approximately," which surprised me. In favor of my interpretation, it can mean "in the form of," such as in Matt. 3:16.

    The commentaries that I have are divided. The Expositor's Bible Commentary (Liefeld) and The New International Commentary on the NT (Geldenhuys) take your side. On my side are Vincent, Alford and A. T. Robertson, who says, "In an agony (en agôniâi). It was conflict, contest from agôn. An old word, but only here in the N.T. Satan pressed Jesus harder than ever before. As it were great drops of blood (hôsei thromboi haimatos). Thick, clotted blood. An old word (thromboi) common in medical works, but here only in the N.T. . . . Aristotle speaks of a bloody sweat as does Theophrastus."

    As for Jesus looking like a bloody mess because of hematridosis, that would depend on the mix of blood and sweat. If the drops were mostly sweat, Jesus could simply wipe His face and not look bloody.

    I'm going to stick to my interpretation here, especially because of the word thromboi, which adds a medical dimension to the verse, and was used in classical Greek in a similar way to how it is used here, as Robertson points out.
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Huh?!? :confused:
     
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