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did Jesus EVEN Exist Before the Incarnation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, May 31, 2011.

  1. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I've just called myself daft, so I am not offended at all. :laugh:

    But having thought about the than-then business, I think it has more to do with the way Americans pronounce those words. "Then" and "Than" seem to be pronounced almost identically by Americans, but they are quite different in British English. I must stop before I take this thread off track. :)
     
  2. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    This thought is drifting toward heresy.

    These very early heresies of the church should help to inform on the subject (all were sourced from A Short Guide to Ancient Heresies, Kenneth D. Whitehead)


     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    To answer the OP in word word, "YEP"!!!
     
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Well..
    believe that Jesus was/is FULLY both God/man...

    just was asking IF it is the deal that Jesus was born at a certain time in history, at that moment God took on a Human flesh body and dwelt among us, and that is the very form the Second person in trinity will always have...

    BUT
    before coming and becoming Jesus, was "just" known as God the Son/Word of God, as he had not come to earth yet as Jesus?

    that His humanity started 2000 years ago, when he came and was called Jesus, but before that he was "just " God?
     
  5. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    I understand... The reason I posted what I did is that, historically, when people take up this particular question, they end up resorting to human logic to solve the equation and human logic fails every time resulting in the above mentioned heresies. Not saying you are going there, just mentioning that the line of thought seems to lead people there time after time.

    And, here is one reason why that is... We end up in a position were we have to say, "I think..." and then prognosticate about what we really don't know for sure. Yes, there are theophanies in the OT, where Christ appeared (or so the context leads) in bodily form before His incarnation, and yes, there are post ascension appearances (to Paul and John in some form or fashion) where Christ is still corporeal. It is difficult to explain those instances away without doing harm to the text, but it is also difficult to rationalize how a pre-existing adult Messiah could be born as an infant and grow in all ways human -- stature, mind, emotions, etc. -- yet that is exactly what the Scriptures present!

    If I had to "think" about this and take a stance, I might be inclined to say that Christ has always had a corporeal glorified body, and that He set that aside to be born as a man in all respects human. He returned to that body when He finished His work. But I cannot back that up with any scholarship, nor can I do more than (perhaps) proof-text the idea, so take it with a grain of salt and add it to the list of things that you want to discover for certain when you meet Him face-to-face. :laugh:
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
     
  7. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    This verse, I am thinking, was the very first thing that came to mind, when I saw this thread started.
     
  8. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    That is a great verse (aren't they all?) but it does not specifically speak to a corporeal body, just a state of glory, which is why I said that we have to start invoking the term "I think..." when we speak of this issue.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    True, but He did ascend in a glorified body. Coupled with the christphanies in the OT, I think its safe to assume the body He ascended in was the same He had prior to the incarnation. God is timeless.
     
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Something happened though in the Incarnation to God, as he never was on earth in a form of being an actual flesh and blood Hu,man being...

    THAT same body he was born in was raisd up from the grave, and bodily returned to the father...

    he was indeed 'changed and different' as God was now in person of His Son jesus both God/man!
     
  11. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    I note that you use both "I think..." and "assume" in your explantion. Isn't that just about what I wrote above? :laugh:
     
  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    What does this verse mean relative to the OP?
    Did he exist as one called Jesus?
    Did he exist as one known as the Son of God?
    Did he exist as the Word of God?

    How good of a word is person to speak of God?
    The Word was made flesh and when born of Mary was called Jesus and is said to be the only begotten of the Father, a person yet that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit, a person.
    Just who is the Father?

    If we are spoken of as being begotten of God, the Father. In what manner is Jesus the only begotten?

    Questions, questions, questions?
     
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    He is the Second person of the Holy trinity...
    before He came to earth in form of Human being Jesus, he was Word/God the Son...

    the Word became Flesh, Jesus...

    Now forever more God and Man in 1 Being Fully God/Fully Man

    So God the Som always has existed, just took on the Human nature/ side when He became Jesus Christ!
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Phil 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

    but did empty himself,

    form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,

    I understand servant would be even more correct as slave or bond
    slave.
    It is stated elsewhere the first man Adam was the figure of him to come, the Word made flesh. Elsewhere it also says he was made a living soul. Was the one who came in his figure also a living soul? Where does the life of a living soul come from? Was the soul of Jesus resurrected from Hades?
    Who's slave? Who was he obedient to?

    I would say from John 17:5 he did empty himself of glory. What all makes up glory? What is inclusive in the glory of God? Is life itself inclusive in the word glory? It is stated that before the beginning of time God who cannot lie promised the hope of eternal life. Who before the beginning of time would be promising to whom the hope of eternal life. At that point in time, wait that was before time, Who existed in the beginning and was with God and was God? What he become?

    It is stated the last Adam was made a quicking spirit. Next verse says this: Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. After what that which is spiritual?
     
    #34 percho, Jun 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2011
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...and your point? You made no mention of Christ's glorified body, which our bodies will be like (real, physical bodies)
     
  16. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    My point is that glory is mentioned, but not "body." You are assuming body.
     
  17. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I can follow that I "think". I'm not real big on 100% this and 100% that either for if he did empty himself of anything then he could not be 100%.
    I believe the scriptures teach that the Word was made flesh. The Word became a man so that sinful man could be made in the image and likeness of God through death, which the first Adam brought fourth for us all, and resurrection to regenerated life. He gave his very existence for us and the Father gave him back his existence. Christ died for us. I believe that to the extreme that if could be believed. It was to him the Word to be made flesh that the hope of eternal life was promised and it was through his faith as a man in that hope that we are saved. By his death and resurrection he became faith the righteousness of God.

    For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth (This included the Word made flesh, a man) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son (the only begotten of the Father) to have life in himself; (By his being the firstborn from the dead, the resurrection to eternal life, the author of eternal salvation)

    but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

    Did the Christ give his life for man or not?
     
    #37 percho, Jun 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2011
  18. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    I believe that we "know" that the Word (logos) was "made flesh." We see that in the incarnation and in the very human life of Jesus.

    What we have to assume, guess, think, etc., is the state or lack thereof of the corporeal body of Jesus prior to His incarnation in flesh. We can make some reasoned implications from the theophanies or christophanies in the OT, but we don't "know" with any sense of certainty about the actual state of the fleshly (or lack) body of Jesus before His birth to Mary.
     
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