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Did Jesus preach to spirits in Paradise?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Apr 10, 2018.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Read the verses I quoted.
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No. We study real doctrine. Not made up stuff. :)
     
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  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    • I know the verses, non say Abraham believed on Jesus..
    If you are saying that obeying God is sufficient for Heaven access, that is different that confessing Jesus as Savior.

    Which is why Jesus had to tell them of Himself as Savior., just an the ones on Emasus Rd., He told those in Paradise , who were righteous, of Himself and they believed on Him, as everybody else had who can go to Heaven.

    I will bet your Professors was wrong on a lot of things if something this basic is trouble.
     
  4. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 1 AM Pacific.
     
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The fact that you don't seem to understand the Gospel is more troubling to me.

    The OT saints knew of Christ. They believed the Promise of Christ. They believed Christ was their only Salvation and accepted Him in that role.

    Now, I can't help but notice you didn't respond to the scriptures that clearly and plainly say the OT saints knew Christ. Why won't you respond to that?
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You didn't answer the question. Are Acts10:43 and Daniel 9:25 and 26 a lie?

    If not both those verses make it clear the OT saints knew Christ.
     
  7. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no, the expected a Messiah as the Jews do today, A righteous Jew today that has belief in God is not sufficient to inherit eternal life
     
  8. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Abraham, isaac etc. did not know of the Messiah. We do not know of the Messiah until Daniel. Earlier ones only knew of God ,

    Your position is that is sufficient, I say it is incomplete until the cross. The scripture says faith was accounted for righteousness. This is not the same. It wasn't complete until Jesus work was finished.

    Did it cost a lot to take the class on this subject? you need to get a refund.

    Dr J Vernon McGee teaches this. Matthew Henry, I am looking for others.

    David predicted this as well

    Psa 68:18
    Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

    Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

    He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.

    Grace is applied evenly in spite of when God chose for us to live.
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Genesis 3:15.

    As I said, you don't understand the Gospel.

    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


    Yes, which makes it abundantly clear that those captives were the enemies. Do you really think the OT saints were all the enemies of God.
     
  10. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Okay it is clear Paradise or Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) and Torments were close in Jesus story of Lazarus and the rich man. So that being known then it would no longer be so if Christ is seated with the Father and as Paul says we are absent from the body and present with the Lord!

    So that would mean a change occurred at some point wouldn't it?
     
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Jesus told this story,

    Luke 16:
    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    Which way did Lazarus go? He saw Abraham in Paradise didn't he? The rich man being in torments saw Abraham afar off, he would have gone down to hell but he could see and speak to Abraham. So again do you believe hell is in heaven? You said no but you say the OT saint went to heaven. Was Jesus telling a lie about these being in the same place except for a great gulf fixed? No, Jesus told how it was, Paul says 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    We as NT saints go directly to Heaven again I ask when did the change occur?
     
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    Was he referring to the Ram caught in the bushes or was he saying God will provide a Savior? Wasn't he believing here that God would provide a savior and that was Jesus who came. That Faith in a coming savior was counted unto Abraham for Righteousness!
     
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Abraham knew the Messiah he ate with Him and even jewed Him down as to how many would need to be saved in Sodom for the Savior to Spare them! Enoch knew the Messiah He walked with Him everyday. Adam knew the Messiah as He came looking for Adam and clothed him after the fall.
     
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  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    He went to Heaven.

    Yes. In Heaven.

    Yes.

    No.

    Yes.

    Jesus did not say they were in the same place. It says that the rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus AFAR OFF. That means a LONG way away.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    There was no change. The OT saints went to Heaven and so do the NT saints.

    Here is the question: Where were Abraham's, Lararus's, and the rich man's bodies? In the grave? Of course. So, what part of them are we talking about here? Obviously we are talking about their spiritual presence, not their physical bodies, which are all still in their graves.

    So, the rich man saw Abraham with spiritual, not physical eyes. And what kind of a gulf does a man see with spiritual eyes? A spiritual gulf? The rich man was allowed, for the purpose of this instruction, to be able to see across the great spiritual gulf between Heaven and hell.

    It's really quite simple of you just read it for what it says rather than approaching it with the pseudo-catholic Protestant Purgatory fiction. :)
     
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Both.

    Yes. Jesus came in time to the cross, but His blood was on the Heavenly Mercy Seat for all Eternity.

    Yes. Just as our faith is. :)
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    There was a vast gulf between Heaven and Hell, a spiritual gulf. Perceived with spiritual, not physical, eyes.

    No.
     
  17. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
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