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Did Jesus turn the water into wine, or grape juice

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by rjprince, Mar 29, 2006.

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  1. Jesus made wine...

    98.3%
  2. Jesus made grape juice...

    1.7%
  1. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Unfermented wine? Go to any store that sells the stuff and tell them to help you find the unfermented wine. After they stop laughing, if they do... And after they find out that what you really want is juice, they will tell you that wine is fermented. If it is not fermented, it is JUICE.
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Was this wine unfermented, too?
    Isaiah 25:6 The LORD of Hosts will prepare a feast for all the peoples on this mountain--a feast of aged wine, choice meat, finely aged wine.
    The LORD will be giving us the BEST wine, as He gave those at that wedding in Cana. Aged wine can NOT be non alcoholic, period.
     
  3. mcdirector

    mcdirector Active Member

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    This has always been my understanding.
     
  4. Satartia

    Satartia New Member

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    To frame this issue a bit, Southern Baptists did not have a prohibition on alcohol until 1896. That prohibition came as a result of the temperance movement as a social cause not as a spiritual issue. In fact Southern Baptists did not look for Scriptural Support until after the decision was made. I'm not saying this as an excuse to drink alcohol but rather to note that for Southern Baptists we are arguing from the Bible on an issue that rightly or wrongly was decided for societal reasons. If anybody wants to read about this, I'll be happy to provide a source.
     
  5. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    This has always been my understanding. </font>[/QUOTE]in other countries they have wines that are not alcoholic. We just don't care for those here in America much...
     
  6. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    BMom,

    Even if I accepted that, it does not demonstrate that either OT or NT vinticulture produced non-alcoholic wine.

    And nobody has dealt with the use of methuw in John 2:10, clearly indicating from the TEXT that the wine Jesus made was capable of producing intoxication.
     
  7. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    I know rjprince,

    but I really don't care either way, so I was only answering with a little tidbit of knowledge that I do have. [​IMG]
     
  8. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    BMom,

    The hardest part about all of this for me was not being able to tell my kids that the Bible forbids all use of beverage alcohol. That and having one of my closest friends leave the church largely over my refusal to insist that elders must be teetotalers. Could not get there, no matter how badly I wanted to...
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    rjprince, you state that you wish the Scripture said something different in regards to Jesus making wine, and alcohol use among Elders. Why are you not comfortable with what the Scriptrue plainly says? What's the need to be upset Scripture supports alcohol and not drunkeness?
     
  10. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Because of the danger that some who try to use alcohol in moderation will become addicted to its abuse, I would be more comfortable if God had forbidden it altogether. However, my comfort level is not the issue. Faithfully proclaiming the Word as written IS.

    I was just sharing that if I had written it, I would have ruled out alcohol. He is God, I am His servant. I do not have to understand, I have but to obey. The job of the preacher is not to proclaim what he would like, but to find out what God has said and to proclaim His Word. Jonah did not like the fact that God was likely to spare Nineveh if he went and preached to them. I have never been to whale seminary, but I HAVE faithfully proclaimed things that I do not fully understand and am not fully comfortable with.
     
  11. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    I have also watched as alcohol has destroyed the lives and homes of people I love.
     
  12. DeeJay

    DeeJay New Member

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    A little bit about grapes and wine.

    Fermentation takes place when yeast eats suger making alcohol as a byproduct. When you make beer you must add yeast and suger (malt).

    Grape juice has suger and yeast in and on the grape. The white powder you see on grapes and wipe off plums is yeast. When a grape is smashed the yeast on the skin is mixed with the suger in the juice immediatly starting fermentation.

    You can litterly smash a grape in a cup and within days you will have wine. Now all wine naturally ferments to around %14 this is because at around %14 alcohol the yeast dies in the alcohol.

    Sometimes wine makers want a different yeast then the one naturally on the grape for taste reasons. In this case you have to add a natural anti-bactirial to the juice immediatly after smashing and add your own yeast. But the yeast on the skin is sufficent for fermentation.

    So all grape juice contains yeast and all wine that has been fully fermented contains no yeast.

    So during the Passover did Jesus drink a wine that had alcohol or did he drink a wine that had yeast (leaven)?
     
  13. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    DJ,

    The Bible never calls what Jesus drank at Passover "wine". I believe it was, but the text only calls it the "fruit of the vine". Though it was not the season for fresh grapes, the ancients did have ways of boiling down the juice, preserving it, and later reconstituting it as a non-alcoholic beverage. HOWEVER, there is no indication that this practice was known or practiced among the Jews. Further, all Biblical and historical evidence tells us that normal wine was used at passover.

    Also, modern alcoholic beverages frequently have much more kick than 14% alcohol because of modern processes of fermentation. They would better compare to the "strong drink" of the OT.

    Re the leaven, no leaven at passover, that is very clear. So, assuming your information to be factual, I guess Jesus had to have had wine at the Lord's Supper to avoid the yeast. That is your point, yes?
     
  14. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    That's like blaming the lack of a tread mill for a fat person. The choice is left up to each person. The alcohol did not destroy the person. It was the person's choice to abuse alcohol. My parents had grapes and also had wine around all the time. Yet none of us had any problem with its abuse and never even came close to drinking too much. In fact, we really do not like the stuff all that much.
     
  15. standingfirminChrist

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    Jesus did not drink alcoholic wine, and He certainly did not drink anything at the Last Supper. The Scripture says He gave the drink to the disciples, but said He would not drink it.
     
  16. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    Matthew 11:18 & Luke:3

    "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking,
    and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."

    Luke 7:33-34

    Jesus contrasted himself with John the Baptist. Jesus said that John did not eat bread nor drink wine, but Jesus did eat and drink. this
    gives the impression that Jesus ate bread and drank wine. furthermore, because Jesus ate and drank, He was called a "glutton" and a
    "drunkard." this implies that Jesus possibly drank wine (although I'msure He didn't get drunk!).

    John:19-29-30

    "A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. when he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:29-30
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    10 Reasons Why The Wine Jesus Made Could Not Have Been Alcoholic

    (1) The Vast Quantity Created (between 120 - 180 gallons).

    This amount of intoxicating wine would have turned the wedding feast into a drunken brawl. Scholars who try to overcome this by suggesting that not all the water was turned into wine, but only that which was drawn off, only complicate things. For did not Christ know all things? He would know exactly how many people might drink one cup. Why then did he not have the attendants fill only one pot? Or even two pots etc.? No, the miracle was divine wisdom and Providence in action. Christ's abundant wisdom and Providence made it obvious that such an amount could not have been intoxicating, thereby protecting his flawless reputation.

    (2) Christ’s Sinlessness And Moral Perfection.

    Jesus himself said in John 8:46:

    Which of you convinceth me of sin?

    In other words, no one was able to convict or find Him guilty of the slightest sin. Thus He declares his sinlessness and moral perfection. Those scholars, who talk about Christ impeccability (perfection) and almost in the same breath declare that he was a drinker and advocate of alcoholic wine, are totally in error.

    Concerning Christ's character Hendrickson states:

    Today's radical theologian is inconsistent when on the one hand he loudly proclaims the moral perfection of Jesus; yet on the other hand rejects his majestic claims! If Jesus is sinless, his claims should be accepted. Any other course is positively wicked.

    Although this statement refers to rejecting Jesus as God, declaring that He was a drinker and that He made intoxicating wine is not far from this dangerous stance.

    Even Jesus' enemies realize that drinking was a sin and called him a wine bibberr (wine drinker, Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34), and what is even more amazing, people who profess to be Christians accuse him of the same thing!

    Many sinners, some of whom have been misinformed by Christians on this issue, also realize that drinking is sin and object to Jesus' claims on those grounds. R.A. Torrey explains this point:
    A stock objection against the Bible, and not only against the Bible but against Jesus Christ Himself, is found in the story of Jesus turning the water into wine at the marriage festival at Cana of Galilee as recorded in John 2: 1-11.

    Unfortunately, this kind of view only comes from those who do not really understand who Jesus is. An even sadder point is that many Christians do more to hinder unbelievers from coming to Christ by misrepresenting his character when it comes to the drink issue.

    We will now look at some New Testament scripture passages, which reaffirm Jesus' sinlessness and perfection, in the light of which makes it inconceivable that our Lord could have drank or created alcoholic beverages. These read:

    1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

    1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

    2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

    In the light of these Biblical facts, it is plain that those who suggest that Jesus drank or created alcoholic wine have a very dim conception of His Holiness indeed.

    (3) Man's Sinfulness.

    John 2:24, 25 states:

    But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because He knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man: for He knew what was in man.

    Jesus also stated:

    ... men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19)

    These passages alone tell us that Jesus would not have bowed to the simple desires of men by creating intoxicating wine. As Scripture states, Jesus knew what was in man, that is, He knew their simple hearts and evil desires. They indeed loved darkness rather than light.

    Those commentators of the Bible therefore, that state such arguments such as "Temperance" is one of the qualities mentioned under the fruit of the Spirit. Or that the guests at the wedding feast, which Christ attended in Cana of Galilee, were a select and holy band of people, who would therefore not drink too much, is not a valid reason for explaining away why Christ would have created intoxicating wine. Since all were sinners.

    Such an act of making alcoholic wine would not have produced faith in Him as the glorious Son of God. Instead it would have merely identified Him as another sinful man with the usual desires for finding pleasure in evil things.

    (4) Temptation.

    In Matthew 6:13, Jesus states:

    And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

    Christ would not therefore have tempted men to become drunkard's, which would mean exclusion from the kingdom of God in which He Himself proclaimed.

    (5) Christ Would Have Approved Of Social Drinking.

    Pubs, bars etc., would therefore be the accepted thing amongst Christians if the wine Christ made was alcoholic as some insist. Christ could also be held responsible to a large extent for the problem of alcoholism today, as the Encyclopaedia Britannica points out:

    First in the realm of health, the most serious and detrimental effect is alcoholism. Although drinking itself is hardly ever regarded as the sufficient cause of alcoholism, this disease could not arise without the use of alcohol

    (6) It Was And Is In The Nature Of Christ To Do Good.

    The Apostle Peter stated in Acts 10:38:

    How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good...

    Albert Barnes explains this principle in the light of Jesus' first miracle:

    Jesus delighted to do good. In the very beginning of His ministry He worked a miracle to show His benevolence. This was the appropriate commencement of a life in which He was to go about doing good. He seized every opportunity of doing it; and at a marriage feast, as well as among the sick and poor, He showed the character which He always sustained-that of a benefactor of mankind. An argument cannot be drawn from this instance in favor of intemperate drinking. There is no evidence that any who were present on that occasion drank too freely. Nor can an argument be drawn from this case in favor even of drinking wine, such as we have. The common wine of Judea was the pure juice of the grape, without any mixture of alcohol, and was harmless. It was the common drink of the people, and it did not tend to produce intoxication.

    Again after consideration of these facts, it is inconceivable from a Biblical perspective, to suggest that our Lord would have created an alcoholic substance which is not good but harmful to the body. Also, Jesus the great Physician and Creator of our bodies, who knows all things, designed our bodies to reject alcohol (in any quantity) because of its destructive potential. He therefore would not have bestowed upon man something which He in His infinite knowledge, purposely designed our complex bodies to reject. The Encyclopaedia Britannica bears this out:

    The body begins to dispose of alcohol immediately after it is absorbed.

    This scientific fact is borne out by the Spirit inspired writer of 1 Samuel 25:37 when referring to Nabal’s complete recovery from drunkenness. It reads:

    1 Samuel 25:37 But it came to pass in the morning, when the wine was gone out of Nabal, and his wife had told him these things, that his heart died within him, and he became as a stone.

    Again after consideration of the facts, can we accuse our Lord and Creator of ignorance?

    (7) Christ Himself Warned Against Drunkenness And Of Drinking, And Drinking With Drunkard's.

    (Matthew 24:45-51; Luke 12:45-46)

    (8) Christ Himself Denied That He Was A Wine Drinker (winebibber).

    When accused of this vise, Jesus stated, But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matthew 11:18, 19; Luke 7:33, 34) a paraphrase of this statement would read:

    I am not a glutton, neither am I a wine drinker, or a lover of the evil deeds of tax collectors and sinners, and this fact will be justly declared by those who are my true children.

    Today those who are His true children will follow His example... that we might be partakers of his Holiness. (Hebrews 12:10b)

    (9) The Old Testament Condemned Drinking As Well As Drunkenness (Proverbs 20:1; 23:31-35).

    Since Christ was well versed in the Old Testament and did not contradict its teachings, the truth of His abstinence from alcoholic wine is firmly established.

    (10) He Would Have Violated His Own Laws Of Creation.

    Speaking of Christ, Colossians 1:16 states:

    Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:.

    Jesus as Lord and Creator, made all things perfect as Genesis 1:31 plainly states:

    And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

    Alcohol is developed by fermentation, a product of decay and death. It therefore could not have been created by our Lord, whose actions were totally consistent with the nature of God and Holy Scripture. The wine created could only be the fruit of the vine, which was not rotten and dead as is the case with fermented wine, but wholesome and fresh. Just like all the other fruits he produces on the trees yearly through his Providence, which reflects his love for man.

    It is sincerely hoped that after consideration of the facts that we have examined, that we grasp the seriousness of any allegations which may suggest that Jesus drank or made intoxicating or alcoholic wine.

    It is also hoped that that any doubts that the reader may have had in this area has been answered, as we have thoroughly looked at this subject from a Scriptural perspective.

    Irrespective of any difficulties which may remain, there are still no excuses which can be drawn from Jesus' first miracles to justify the use of alcoholic drinks. However, there are always those who do not want to understand the clear teachings of the Bible on this subject, and will not accept any truth which commands total abstinence from strong drinks, irrespective of how clear and Biblical it may be. We will therefore conclude this section with the wise quote from Albert Barnes' Bible Commentary, which states:

    No man should adduce this instance in favor of drinking wine, unless he can prove that the wine made in the "water-pots” of Cana was just like the wine he proposes to drank. The Savior’s example may be always pleaded JUST AS IT WAS-but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it.
    excerpt from 'Wine In The Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence' by Leighton Campbell
     
  18. DeeJay

    DeeJay New Member

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    If he gave them fresh grape juice, it contained leaven. All fresh grape juice contains leaven as yeast grows on the skin. This is why you do not need to add yeast to ferment wine.

    SFiC

    Did Jesus give the deciples a drink containing leaven to drink during Passover?

    Did he compair a drink containing leaven to His blood?
     
  19. DeeJay

    DeeJay New Member

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    Yes, this is my point.

    Just to clarifie. Beer and wine are fermented drinks. Hard alcohol is distiled. You can make distiled alcohol as strong as you want. You start with %100 and add other ingiedients.

    Do not confuse distilation with fermentation. Fermentation is the same today as it was 2000 years ago. Smash fruit put juice in container, and wait. Easy as that.

    Wine stops fermenting at around %14. Most wine sold is around %14. There is fortified wine that is higher in alcohol. This is made by taking wine and adding distilled alcohol. But any smashed grape will stop fermenting at around %14

    My whole point here is that wine containes no leaven because at %14 the yeast dies.

    All fresh grape juice contains leaven.
     
  20. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    Alcoholic Wine is Not the "Fruit of the Vine."

    There are thirteen different words or vocables used (in the Bible); nine in the Hebrew and Chaldee, and four in the Greek, all of which are rendered by the European translators indiscriminately as "wine or strong drink," although all intrinsically are solid substances, but which may be turned into intoxicants by human ingenuity. When, however, we examine the passages where these words are used, we find the sacred writers speak, in the most numerous cases, of them, not as intoxicants, but as foods, which was their ordinary form of consumption. Where distinct reference is made to them as means after human manipulation of intoxication, drunkenness, and debauchery, their use in that form is invariably condemned and vehemently denounced by the Prophets and Moralists of the Bible as the causes of personal sin and national ruin. Their use in these forms of alcoholic liquors, or fermented wine, was absolutely forbidden in the religious ordinances of the Temple or Altars, and especially from the sacred rites of the Passover, and to all priests during the period of their ministrations.
    By the Late Dr. Bill Kanoy
     
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