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Did John Kerry Cheat at the Debate?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by KenH, Oct 3, 2004.

  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Oh really?

    Try the latest Pew Poll showing: Among likely voters, Bush led Kerry 49 to 44 percent.

    http://www.local6.com/politics/3782438/detail.html

    Bush and Kerry are running even at 47 percent apiece in a CBS-New York Times poll. Bush was slightly up in an ABC-Washington Post poll out Monday....

    Running even after a short term lapse is not what I would call a slump... :D

    BTW: Pens were not outlawed at the debate...

    Pens not inspected or provided by the debate sponsors were...

    I suspect Bush's Pen was provided for him and left on the podium to avoid the appearance of evil...
     
  2. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    That's ok...he's a Republican and calls himself a Christian, so he is judged by a lower standard. :confused:
     
  3. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    That's because more people are bcoming willing to face up to the fact that John Kerry wasn't the only liar and screwball in the debate.
     
  4. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    Are you still posing as a non-supporter of Bush?
     
  5. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    That is an impossible question to answer since it has no relevance to me. I never posed as a "non-supporter" of Bush that I know of. I have defended myself against those who wrongly accused me of supporting everything Bush does or being a "Bush bot" (whatever that is ... I never saw anyone actually give a definition to that). I have repeatedly said that as it now stands, I am supporting Bush tepidly (that means " Lacking in emotional warmth or enthusiasm; halfhearted; in an unenthusiastically lukewarm manner"), only becuase there is no better electable option and I cannot in good conscience waste my vote. I think he has been a bad president. I have criticized on many things (though have resisted the urge that many here have given into of criticizing him on illegitimate things). I have also said that is the election is settled in Michigan on Election Day I will strongly consider voting for Peroutka if he is on the ballot here in order to help the third parties for the next election.

    My support for Bush has been suspected because of my loyalty to the truth, and because of my dislike for the posts of those who do not share that loyalty. The fact that I have pointed out the truth does not make a supporter of Bush. It is unfortunate that people who like and defend the truth are accused falsely of something they do not do. Failure to read carefully often leads to those kinds of errors.

    So next time, if you are going to ask a question, ask one that is based on the truth and gives the person a legitimate chance to answer.
     
  7. Gershom

    Gershom Active Member

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    Of course, we could ask if you demonstrate your faith by your works in every single thing that you do and go from there. President Bush is by no means perfect (a fact that he himself must have concluded resulting in his confession of faith in Jesus Christ) but I have no doubt that he is a Christian. He's not a perfect man; he's not a perfect Christian; and he's not a perfect President.

    List the policies you believe do not relfect Chritianity.
     
  8. Gershom

    Gershom Active Member

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    That's just untrue and a stupid thing to suggest. I guess you're being sarcastic. You forgot to add the rolling eyes.
     
  9. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    </font>
    Yet you leap to defend him when he's criticized. Do you defend Kerry when he's been unfairly criticized? Are you consistent?

    Right, your support and consistent defense of Bush make you a supporter of Bush.

    You had a legitimate chance to answer.
     
  10. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    That's ok...he's a Republican and calls himself a Christian, so he is judged by a lower standard. :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]Not so Jimbo...and I've even stated so...If they were both cheating what difference does it make? The debate is over...what are they going to do, make them go back and do it over again? Give me a break. They both were probably guilty of breaking the rules. Quit being a jerk. [​IMG] :D
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I appreciate you posting that list Daisy. I don't understand why you did though, since it showed you were misinformed about my support of Bush. You shouldn't refute yourself; it's not good argumentative technique.

    I am not a big Bush supporter. I am not the kind of supporter Bush wants. My support for him is tepid and is only because of the lack of another candidate.

    Why did you say I claimed not to be a Bush supporter and then quote me saying I am a Bush supporter? Did you think before you did that? I can't imagine why you would refute yourself. I am glad you didn't make me go back and find all those quotes. You did my work for me and refuted your own assertion.

    No, I defend the truth when it is misrepresented. I have never defended Bush on the Medicare prescription drug fiasco. I have never defended Bush for backing down from prolife judges. I have never defended Bush on huge spending increases. I haven't defended Bush on illegal aliens. There have been a number of criticisms of Bush that I have not defended him on, and in fact, have joined in on. All of those facts shows your comment to be wrong.

    Yes. I defended Kerry when people said he cheated at the debate. I said if he did it was a lack of character which wouldn't be a surprise, but that it was a non-issue. All in all, I don't read a lot of what is said about Kerry here and I don't see a lot of charges made about him. I am sure they are made, but I don't read many of them and thus, I rarely respond about him. In fact, I don't remember commenting much on Kerry at all. Usually I don't even read those threads.

    Right, your support and consistent defense of Bush make you a supporter of Bush.</font>[/QUOTE]What?? That doesn't make much sense. I am assuming you said something wrong there. Otherwise, it's a tautology. The truth is that I defend the truth. Just because lies happen to be told about Bush and I defend the truth against those lies does not make me a supporter of Bush. IF I defended Kerry against lies, that woulnd't make me a Kerry supporter.

    You had a legitimate chance to answer.</font>[/QUOTE]When you ask a question based on a faulty premise, I do not have a chance to answer. You refuted yourself by showing my comments concerning my tepid support for Bush. Your question was similar to the "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" It is a poor argumentative technique designed to force your opponent into a guilty position.

    If I had answered NO to your question, I would be admitting that I had claimed to be a non-supporter of Bush. That would have been a lie and I don't lie. I have said many times that I have tepid support for Bush, only because there is no other electable candidate. You yourself quoted me saying that.

    If I had answered Yes to your question, I would be admitting that I was claiming to be a non-supporter of Bush, something I have never claimed. I have made clear that my support for Bush is tepid and due to the fact that there is no other electable candidate.

    You really should learn not try to come after me. Every time you do, you end up doing something like this and now you have to find a way to dig yourself out. YOu tried to paint me in a corner with an illegitimate question. Then you tried to defend your question and ended up proving that I was right. Don't do that.

    [ October 05, 2004, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  12. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    PJ you missed the whole point...

    I postulated that Bush was using materials provided for him by the commssion staff...

    Kerry brought his own 'something'...

    This was a clear violation. Period....

    Not a lower standard but the mutally agreed upon standard for the debate....

    And, there continues to be debate as to whether he unfolded something or not... I thought that it had been settled that it was only a pen... But, it appears that others are still questioning way certain movements were made for a 'mere' pen...
     
  13. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    Of course, we could ask if you demonstrate your faith by your works in every single thing that you do and go from there. President Bush is by no means perfect (a fact that he himself must have concluded resulting in his confession of faith in Jesus Christ) but I have no doubt that he is a Christian. He's not a perfect man; he's not a perfect Christian; and he's not a perfect President.

    List the policies you believe do not relfect Chritianity.
    </font>[/QUOTE]"Not perfect"...like the plumber who burned down the house..."Hey, nobody's perfect".

    Here's a brief list that you asked for:

    1. Sending women, including mothers with small children, into combat.

    2. Appointing homosexual activists and abortion promoters to high level positions.

    3. Grabbing federal power over childrens' education and the massive associated expenses.

    4. Remaining largely silent on the abomination of abortion, and not even including it on his official agenda.

    5. Sticking the federal government's nose into the church by offering cash.

    6. Disregarding the constitution, which is the law of the land, in many areas (Kerry would do this too).

    7. Massive spending of money that the government does not have, by stealing from the people through massive debt and the inflation and interest payments that will result.

    8. Attacking a nation that did not threaten to attack us, killing many, many thousands of people.

    9. Supporting politicians' campaigns who are radically pro-abortion and other unGodly things.


    I could go on, but I hope you get the point.
     
  14. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    I postulated that Bush was using materials provided for him by the commssion staff...

    Kerry brought his own 'something'...

    This was a clear violation. Period....

    Not a lower standard but the mutally agreed upon standard for the debate....

    And, there continues to be debate as to whether he unfolded something or not... I thought that it had been settled that it was only a pen... But, it appears that others are still questioning way certain movements were made for a 'mere' pen...
    </font>[/QUOTE]I haven't followed all of this as you apparently have. Assuming that what you say is correct, and I see no reason to think otherwise, you are correct: I did miss the point. I misspoke that the double standard is in place here.
     
  15. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    PJ...

    That doesn't mean that a "Bushie" like myself couldn't be wrong about a point or... Miss something wrong 'our' guy does...

    I Wish You Peace... [​IMG]
     
  16. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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  17. Gershom

    Gershom Active Member

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    Deleted - I will respond to PJ later

    [ October 06, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Gershom ]
     
  18. Gershom

    Gershom Active Member

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    1. It is the duty of soldiers, male and female alike to fulfill their obligations as G.I.'s. Same as you're expected to fulfil your duties for your employer.

    2. While homosexuality is a sin, hiring them for service does not prove the employer is not a Christian. Same as any sin. We'd all be jobless.

    3. Don't like it? Homeschool. Again, this does not prove what you are suggesting.

    4. The President has made his position on abortion known. "Not even including it on his official agenda" does not prove what your suggesting.

    5. This doesn't prove what you are suggesting about the President's Christianity. So far, you're just blowing a lot of hot air.

    6. I understand that the US Constitution is sacred document to some, and to some others it is merely a useful tool as a means for throwing punches, but the bottom line is that the President cannot amend it without consent as was demonstrated just recently. And again, this does not prove what you are suggesting. It is not un-Christian to seek support for an amendment and it is not un-Christian for the Congress to authorize the war.

    7. Such is the cost. And I wouldn't call it "stealing." Loose terms to fit your loose accusation. Still, it does not prove what you're suggesting - that the President is not a Christian.

    8. That is debatable. I believe that Iraq was a friend of the terrorists and a known enemy to the United States. So do many others. Going to war does not put into question a President's salvation.

    9. Elaborate.

    All of your suggestions do not support your idea that President Bush is not a Christian or acted in a way that proves he is not a Christian.
     
  19. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Such as Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania.
     
  20. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    So, are you saying that you favor women in combat? If so, I disagree.



    Same as any sin? Does your church discipline people for overeating, or having an unloving thought pop into their heads?

    Would you propose that leaders of the KKK should fill high level government positions? After all, "we're all sinners", what makes them any worse?



    By this logic, any policy at all is permissable. Just because someone can homeschool does not make any policy whatsoever acceptable. And, if you are at all involved in fighting the humanistic takeover of childrens' education, you know that much (most) of the "bad stuff" comes "down from the top"...very, very anti-Christian stuff.

    But the biggest problem is that God gives to PARENTS the responsibility of educating their children. All of these programs are designed to put government into a role that God does not give to it.

    So, yes, it does make my point.


    Friend, 3800 babies will be murdered today. If you want to operate on the basis of that flimsy argument, go ahead. Just think about how your arguments work on the fate of the unborn, though. Why do you figure he left it out of his agenda, and how much do you really think he intends to do about it?


    You asked me for a list of un-Chriatian things that I thought Bush was doing. But you apparently do not intend to honestly consider my responses, you simply will defend Bush no matter what he says or does.

    I have taken time to give you a thoughtful response, and you call it "hot air". Get a mirror.

    Government funding of churches is dangerous. The government can (and should) control what it funds. The Church is the body of Christ, and should not be funded by the state.

    The Constitution is not sacred, in the religious sense, of course. But it IS the supreme law of the land, and our only legal protection from tyranny at th e federal level. I'm not just talking about the "war", I'm talking about all sorts of areas that the federal government has encroached upon. Don't take my word for it, your own beloved GOP said the same thing just a few years ago, before they discovered the joy of slopping like hogs at the trough of federal debt.



    "Such is the cost"...what does that mean?

    OF COURSE it does not prove that the president is not a Christian. I would not waste my time trying to prove that, since there is no way to know. I hope he is. MY POINT is that as President, he has certain duties, and my concern is that he carries them out, and sets policy, in a Christian fashion. I contend, by these points, that he does not.


    Yes, of course, and there's no way we will agree on it at this point.

    As I said elsewhere, if someone is burglarizing my house, I really don't care whether he's an atheist or a wayward Christian.


    In PA, we finally had a chance to replace the ultra-abortion powerhouse Arlen Specter with a GOP pro-lifer. Bush came to PA to campaign for Specter, pushing him to a narrow victory.

    Arnold Schwartzenneger.

    As I said, I hope he is a Christian. I cannot, and have absolutely no desire to prove otherwise. But he's asking for my vote to be President, and for that I must, as James advocates, judge his works.
     
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