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Featured Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Apr 27, 2015.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So you believe only those people heard when He went to Paradise and Preached across the Great Gulf? Paul said in Ephesians 4 that He descended first, then Peter said He preached to those in Prison. Do you believe it was just those?

    Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    Luke 23:42 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

    Verse 43 shows Jesus descended into the same Paradise as Lazerus. Jesus could speak to those in Torments from His own words about the rich man and Abraham speaking across the great gulf.

    So we have Peter saying Jesus spoke to those in Prison, Paul says He descended before He ascended. We see then Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:5-6, 5 "Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:"
    At some point Paradise was moved. For we know Christ is said to be in Heaven seated at the Fathers right hand, and those in paradise are there just as our souls will be there.

    Meaning He needed to say nothing to those in Torments when they saw all the Saints taken up into heaven, but Peter said He preached to the souls in Prison.
     
    #81 revmwc, Apr 30, 2015
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So you think that reading a passage and it jumps out at you as to the meaning is not the Holy spirit revealing it is Pathetic? You seem to believe that you must go see what Pink, or Ink or Hokstra says before you believe what first comes to your mind?

    Sorry reading through scripture when filled with the Spirit will allow you to have the Holy Spirit reveal truth to you.

    1 Corinthians 2:12-14, 2 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

    Seems if we are in tune with Holy Spirit that is filled and controlled by Him we can understand spiritual things because He not man teaches them to us.

    1 Thessalonians 1:6 "And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost."

    We receive the truth from the Holy Spirit not from men. When I read and a passage or verse jumps out and says something to me to reveal the truth I believe that is the Holy Spirit guiding me. I need not go to a commentary to find it God just revealed it to me as He did with 1 Thessalonians 1:10 that I used to start this thread. 10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." this follows perfectly with what Jesus says in Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Perfect harmony of scripture. Paul said and Jesus said it. No question in my mind.
     
    #82 revmwc, Apr 30, 2015
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Calypsis,

    Let's look at this;
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


    Would you agree that whatever Jesus was speaking about...It happened to that generation He was speaking to ??? Notice in vs 32, 36

    This generation shall not pass away,Till....watch ye therefore.....:wavey:


    Notice also; These things did happen already in 70 ad to that generation...

    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;     and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled
     
    #83 Iconoclast, Apr 30, 2015
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    revmwc

    I do not believe He preached to anyone after they left their bodies....
    In the day of Noah.....Noah preached by the power of the Spirit to sinners who were still alive until the floodcame and took them all away.... once taken they await the white throne Judgement in prison

    in the parallel passage in Jude we see the same language used of fallen angels and sodomites'
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire


    The certainty of the judgement is given as a warning...there is no second chance...:wavey:

    here the same thing....he is said to be "being in torment". we do not believe in purgatory...so he is given as an example...we must believe the word now, before we leave the body...
     
    #84 Iconoclast, Apr 30, 2015
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I would suggest two things.

    First, we cannot exclude His suffering for sin, His death, and His being made alive by the Spirit from each other, they are related. They are what by which speaks of;

    Secondly, these events didn't take place in Noah's day.

    Conclusion would reasonably be that in view is Christ speaking forth to these transgressors in His day.


    God bless.
     
    #85 Darrell C, Apr 30, 2015
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Is it your position Peter is speaking of Noah?


    God bless.
     
    #86 Darrell C, Apr 30, 2015
  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    He preached His victory to them not giving them a second chance after death. How did He preach victory? By taking the souls in Paradise to Heaven.

    here is what Peter said,
    1 Peter 3:18-20, 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Notice what it says He died for sins, that was His message, but He brought life to those who believed. Then notice what it says "HE WENT" not that He preached it through Noah, but "HE WENT" What did HE do when HE went, "HE PREACHED" His message He died for sin, they had failed to believe He would.

    Paul makes it very clear, Ephesians 4: 8-10,

    8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

    He descended into the lower parts of the earth, between these two passages we see He Descended into the lower parts of the earth and HE PREACHED that He died for sins. Not that they could be saved but that they were doomed forever.

    We see that at some point the souls in Paradise or Paradise itself must have been relocated for Paul says, 2nd Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

    Very clear when we die we are with the Lord. He is seated
    Romans 8:33-34, 33 "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

    So when did HE GO and Preach, when did He descend? You say He didn't that Noah did, but scripture does back up the fact that Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth and that HE WENT and preached to those in Prison. the message was for those of Noah's day but all in the Graves would have heard and seen the souls being transferred from the Paradise abode of Hades to Heaven to be with Christ and His Victory over sin was seen and heard by ALL in the Grave at that time.
     
    #87 revmwc, Apr 30, 2015
  8. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    What Paul told the believers in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 he also said to the believers in Rome,
    Romans 5:8-10, 8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Notice "we shall be saved from wrath through Christ" then, "being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

    Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

    Not one place do see the Church or churches mentioned after Revelation 3 until Revelation 21 verse 2. There the church is mentioned as the Bride.

    Jesus said to the church at Philadelphia, Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
    Paul says we are saved from the wrath of God, God's wrath coming upon the earth is seen Revelation 6:17. The call to come up hither goes out with the voice like a trumpet and John is carried into heaven where he sees twenty four elders seated and crowned which would fulfill multiple passages where Paul taught of the rewarding of Believers.
    1 Corinthians 3:12-14,
    12 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

    Romans 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

    2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

    Appears in Revelation 4 the twenty four elders have faced the judgment seat and have their reward, their crowns.

    thus this is where the resurrection of the dead and living church age believers are caught up.

    1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    Revelation 4:1-2, 1"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

    a beautiful picture of the calling home of the Church here in Revelation 4 to fulfill what Paul said would happen. This is a resurrection and a Translation of both the living and dead Saints of the church.
     
    #88 revmwc, Apr 30, 2015
  9. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    I think it's ironic that you never post verse 24 "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God: and they that hear shall live."

    Kinda blows apart what you are always trying to imply by quoting 28 and 29.

    This must be a really long hour, seeing as how the dead are still hearing the voice of Christ and being regnerated to spiritual life. it's been a few thousands years.

    Destroys this whole idea I see you touting that verse 28 and 29 teach there must be a general resurrection of both the saved and lost at the same exact time, if the hour in verse 24 has lasted a few thousand years, why is it so hard for you to believe that the hour in vs 28 and 29 can't be a thousand?
     
    #89 Jordan Kurecki, Apr 30, 2015
  10. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4 Member

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    Why did you pass over the obvious import of what the Lord said in vss 35 & 36? Like OldRegular you avoided it and the vastly important details that Jesus gave us there.

    'This generation' is a people/nation, not a time frame. Proof:

    51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias,
    which perished between the altar and the temple:
    verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

    But the people who killed Zacharias were long dead so how could the Jewish leaders being spoken to by Jesus be responsible for the murder? They were not even alive when that event occurred centuries earlier. The answer is that they had the same spirit and attitude of resistence and rebellion that the Jewish priesthood that killed Zacharias had and they eventually proved it by murdering Jesus.

    Further proof:

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,and they also which pierced him:
    and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because
    of him. Even so, Amen.

    This event was prophesied by John about 25 yrs after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 so it refers to something that HAS to be a future event. Why? Because 'every eye' has not yet seen Jesus return to earth. Yet even more important; how could those who 'pierced him' (the evil priests of Israel) possibly see this event happen before their eyes since they were all probably dead by the time John wrote the prophecy?

    The obvious answer to all of this is the fact that 'this generation' refers to a people and not a time frame. Understand that the Greek word for generation = genea γενεαὶ which can also be translated 'nation' (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance). Put that word ('nation') in the above verses and those you quoted and the difficult questions you've posed are cleared up.

    It is a nation/people not a time frame. If you can't grasp this understanding then there is no possible way to understand Rev. 1:7 & Luke 11:51 in the time frame you are promoting.

    Only partially. They will have a double fufillment and the completion of the matter is yet future. Jesus did not return in A.D. 70; every eye did not see Him return and His kingdom was not established in any way, shape, or form...either politically, socially, or spiritually among the Jews who remained in unbelief after the destruction. They did not repent despite the horrible outcome of war.

    Yet the details of the entire matter were unfulfilled as per Zachariah...

    Notice the details of the war that did NOT occur in A.D. 70:

    (Please observe that the things I highlight have not occurred yet)

    Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (Note: half the city did not go into captivity; the entire city was taken by Titus legions).

    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (Note: The Lord did not come and fight against the Romans. the Jews were utterly defeated.)

    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, (Note: Jesus did not return visibly to the Mount of Olives) and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.     (Note: there was no geographical change in Jerusalem or Israel in A.D. 70)

    The things I highlighted above did NOT occur in A.D. 70 proving that your time frame for the completion of the prophecy is in error.

    Nonetheless, thanks for expressing your view.
     
    #90 Calypsis4, Apr 30, 2015
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    hello caly,


    I did not pass over it .I just noticed the verses before it explain the time frame so the answer should reflect it.
    I understand the explanation you are offering but no longer hold to that.




    No.....it was that generation Jesus was speaking to.

    To try and maintain your view.....you ignore several time texts and have to offer definitions that are not biblical....

    here are some you ignore as well as trying to make the term this generation speak of future persons. or in the words of Salem Kirban....this generation of evil:wavey:

    here are some others that you must avoid......

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    Do you observe the mosaic Sabbath Caly?
    Notice in 25...I have told you before....then 26....if they say unto you...


    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away


    I agree with you in part here.....but not with your conclusion.


    The nation led by these very religious leaders was coming under the Covenant curses of Deut 28-33....Mt 20-25 is Jesus instructing them on this very fact , as well as why they were being rejected and why the temple and holy place was going to be destroyed and face the abomination of desolation.....that is exactly what happened.....


    Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that He spake of them.yes... he spoke of THEM.....not a future nation....THEM

    Mt23
    29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

    30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

    31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate


    Further proof:

    This language speaks of the judgment that came upon them...that pierced Him." he cometh with clouds speaks of God's judgment upon them.
    .

    Not everyone assumes te late date of the writing of the book of revelation...some understand it as written between 64-68 ad.

    They did "see" the judgment and abomination of desolation.
    It is not speaking of the second coming which is on the last day.

    .

    Instead this is the obvious place to start to see where your view unravels....it meant what it said...that generation....Jesus spoke of some who are standing here....
    But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.


    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.




    ]



    [

    sure it was:wavey:
     
    #91 Iconoclast, Apr 30, 2015
  12. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4 Member

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    hello caly,

    I have a Bible study tonight so I can't answer you right now. Perhaps later tonight or tomorrow.

    I do not agree with your reasoning and quite frankly, you are, by analogy, like a race car driver who runs through stop signs, ignores road warnings, and crashes through barriers in order to get where you wish to go. But I'll explain why later.

    Until then...    :wavey:
     
    #92 Calypsis4, Apr 30, 2015
  13. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4 Member

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    I will be polite but nonetheless I'll be forthright and straight with you.

    That is exactly what you did. If you had paid attention to the details of those verses you would see that (1) the WHOLE EARTH would be ensnared by it....'it' being that the Kingdom of God would come (vs 31). Friend, the truth is that THAT did not happen in A.D. 70 for only Israel and Jerusalem were involved in the judgment that came upon them, Israel did not repent and the Kingdom did not arrive. The Jews were scattered throughout the world.

    You see it was not the WHOLE EARTH that was ensnared during the Roman invasion of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. How can you fail to understand that?

    Secondly, believers were told by Jesus that if they were worthy they would escape....to stand before the Son of man, vs 36. That is the rapture. It cannot be anything else for it perfectly matches what we are told in I Thess 4:16-17 about meeting the Lord in the air. So there will be those who will escape to meet with the Lord in the skies and those who will not escape according to Paul in I Thess. 5:3.

    But that doesn't help you for as I documented earlier: "The obvious answer to all of this is the fact that 'this generation' refers to a people and not a time frame. Understand that the Greek word for generation = genea γενεαὶ which can also be translated 'nation' (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance)."

    Why do you diss definitions as explained from classical biblical sources (i.e. Strongs)? There is more than one meaning for the word generation but you won't even consider any other. The truth is that the prophecy of Jesus was a double entendre which BEGAN with the unbelieving Jews of that time and will conclude at the end of the world.

    You had no biblical reason to make such a change. Your reasoning in this matter is faulty...but let me go on and show you why.


    Just saying it does not establish your position; you must have sound biblical reasoning but that is lacking on this point.

    I have ignored nothing. I have and will answer every single point you make and with no problem.

    Why would I have to 'avoid' these words? The great tribulation has not occurred in our world yet and the proof is that none of the prophecies concerning the 7 plagues, the 7 seals, nor the 7 trumpets have ever happened in world history, nor even the three woes as well as the antichrist, the mark of the beast, and the world government described in Revelation 13. No dictator in world history has taken over the world and caused the population of the world to worship him. The A.D. 70 incident was not even close and Nero was not the antichrist. he did not rule over the whole world for neither India nor China nor the America's were involved in what he did.

    Those are all true words of course but only part of them apply to A.D. 70 destruction.

    Why do you ask? What point are you trying to make here?

    WHAT IS AT THE DOORS? He told us in Luke 21:31 --- the Kingdom of God...which did not come in A.D. 70 nor has it since then. The Jews did not repent and no one saw Jesus coming in the clouds as He promised in Rev. 1:7.

    But 'all these things' were not fulfilled in A.D. 70...nor in any time subsequent to the destruction of Jerusalem at that time. The rest of it is yet future...some of which will have a double fulfillment.

    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

    Some of it was fulfilled. Much of it was not. That is what you refuse to see.


    Again, the verses are all true but not all of it was fulfilled in A.D. 70. I have already given you quite a few reasons why. But it isn't honest to invent certain events for that time frame when in fact they have not yet happened and history bears up the fact that they did not happen....yet.

    You've given no proof. You've misapplied scripture to defend a position that does not match what is truly revealed by God's Word. The reason I quoted Zechariah so extensively was for the purpose of helping you see that a great many details of the prophecy did not occur during the invasion of Jerusalem by Titus legions.

    Judgment did come upon the wretches that killed Christ--- in A.D. 70...but that was not the end of it. There is more to come in the time Jeremiah called 'The time of Jacobs trouble.' The coming tribulation will make the event of A.D. 70 seem like child's play.


    Let me show you why that position is an error:

    Quote: "The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

    Irenaeus
    Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

    Clement of Alexandria
    Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23)
     
    #93 Calypsis4, Apr 30, 2015
  14. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4 Member

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    To Iconoclast, part II:

    They did NOT see Jesus returning in the clouds nor was the prophecy fulfilled that 'every eye shall see' Him coming. Again you are ignoring details...details that make a huge difference. Another detail that you missed: "and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him", vs 7. THAT did not happen in A.D. 70. But will you deny this also even without a shred of historical proof that it happened?

    My view does not unravel. I have given you sound doctrine in support of the pre-tribulation, pre-millenial return of Jesus Christ at the end of the world.

    That particularly applies to John who saw the kingdom of God coming in vision and wrote the Revelation to tell the whole world about it.


    That's right: THEY (the men who killed him in A.D. 33) died by A.D. 70. THEY did not see Him return but their unbelieving offspring shall see Him whom they pierced...proving that 'this generation' refers to a people/nation and not always to a particular time frame.

    The Lord coming in the sky with lightning flashing has not occurred yet. It is yet to come and that is very plain when all of the pieces of the prophetic puzzle are appropriately and honestly placed.
     
    #94 Calypsis4, Apr 30, 2015
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Calypsis4

    Sounds good!


    No...it is not what I did. What I did was look a few verses before it to gather some context....which looks as if it escaped you because you are eager to tell this premill story.
    .
    The account had to start with Jerusalem as the King came to Zion.mt21


    A remnant did indeed repent and the kingdom has been started.
    11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


    heb12
    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

    29 For our God is a consuming fire.
    :thumbs:

    How Luke 2 King James Version (KJV)

    2 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. How much tax did Peru, China, and Alaska pay here ..C4?
    ...
    It also says all the world ???:laugh:

    I understand you want to make that claim, but that is not what the text says now, does it? You and other dispys want so badly to connect the dispensational dots that you conflate texts that do not go together.

    Here again...1 thess 4 is speaking of the last day as Jesus described in Jn 6.

    3x He says I will raise them on the last day....no talk of escaping anything.


    sure...but it can also be translated as a generation as it is over 95 % of the time:laugh: Your so called documentation is happening in your mind, but not in what you have posted.

     that is not what the passage teaches except in the minds of those who promote this idea.



    you said that, but have not really dealt with what I suggest to you....


    And yet this is true of what you post...it falls apart like a cheap suit, when examined.
    .
    You can start anytime:laugh:

    [
    Many have seen these things fulfilled already.

    COLOR]

    Not according to your premill ideas!

    .

    Yes...of course they do.

    I asked you the question because I wanted you to answer it. It is an important


    But...the Kingdom did come.....Mt 21:43....


    This language is similar to many such comings in judgment in the OT.



    Or.....it happened just as Jesus said it would and you do not welcome what he said, like the first century Jews who rejected the true nature of the Kingdom rule;
    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
     
    #95 Iconoclast, May 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2015
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus has not come back yet, as there has not yet been the great tribulation period, when whole earth will seek to kill of those who profess jesus at that time!

    And when the events of his Second coming are at hand, THAT generation shall not pass away!
     
    #96 Yeshua1, May 2, 2015
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes it does! And therein lies your problem. How do you know which world it refers to? You keep changing the meaning of the word simply to fit your theology.

    So when it comes to a verse such as:
    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Christ made a propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

    John 3:16 God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son...

    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    What is "the world" in these verses" Icon?
    Is it the world--the entire world of all generations, encompassing all nations and all peoples?

    Is it the entire world of the first century?

    Is it the known world of the first century?

    Is it just the elect of the first century?

    Is it just the elect throughout the ages?

    Perhaps, if taken in the actual historical context (according to the typical Calvinistic method of interpretation), it refers only to the elect of the first century. After all that is who the author, in each case, was speaking to. If so, Icon, how can you be sure that you are one of the elect?
     
    #97 DHK, May 2, 2015
  18. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    I think it's ironic that you never post verse 24 "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God: and they that hear shall live."

    Kinda blows apart what you are always trying to imply by quoting 28 and 29.

    This must be a really long hour, seeing as how the dead are still hearing the voice of Christ and being regnerated to spiritual life. it's been a few thousands years.

    Destroys this whole idea I see you touting that verse 28 and 29 teach there must be a general resurrection of both the saved and lost at the same exact time, if the hour in verse 24 has lasted a few thousand years, why is it so hard for you to believe that the hour in vs 28 and 29 can't be a thousand?
    __________________
     
    #98 Jordan Kurecki, May 2, 2015
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No one said he did.


    This is part of what gets debated....
    Actually you say this, but scripture does not....that is the problem you have,,,you offer no scripture...just opinion.
     
    #99 Iconoclast, May 2, 2015
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Others have explained to you...AA,Rippon<Con 1 and others...the context determines the meaning......you have not learned this lesson yet...

    .

    You repeat many errors and this is but one example.....

    I do not change the meaning......the context changes...so obviously the meaning is subject to that change......In Luke it says the decree was that all the world should be taxed.......what does that mean????

    I know what it means...do you?

    In Noahs day....God destroyed the world of the ungodly
    Some times words are used to speak of the whole world, sometimes the end of the age.......when it is different , different interpretation is demanded.

    When you suggest it is not different you error.
    You keep repeating this as if it can only be understood in one way...

    It has several ways it could be understood.....and only one of them is correct.
    The cals here know which one it is......you do not.


    Since every person who has ever been born is not saved that can be ruled out.

    The cals understand that Jesus did not come to save the Jews only...or National Israel only.......no...His elect are found both in Israel{the elect remnant} and in the world.......gentiles ...

    Jn explains it himself in Jn 11;
    0 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

    51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

    52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.[/    B]

    We know God has His elect all scattered abroad...not in Israel alone...but In all the world......
    This has been explained to you many times and John teaches it here...but you resist truth because of your agenda...
     
    #100 Iconoclast, May 2, 2015
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