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Did The Bible Misquote Jesus?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jan 23, 2009.

  1. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    By the way, the performance was Joseph and the Coat of Many Colours.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Not a secret anymore! :laugh:

    I think we've gone off topic. Someone bashed the idea of paying for DVDs or tickets to the debates and that's what went wrong.

    I posted some info for those interested in maybe obtaining a DVD or video of the debate. Those not interested need not condemn those who do this or those who want to buy one.
     
  3. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Guess I have seen my share of these kinds of debates over the years. I don't mind if people want to attend them or buy dvd's.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The music is great!
     
  5. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Sadly, this is a part of what is wrong with the Church in America today:
    Someone defends the scripture against an unbeliever and all christians can do, rather that be supportive is complain that they charge for it.

    Unbelievable.
     
  6. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    Can you tell us some of the points that were made? Maybe we could debate them here. Without some sort of report this thread is simply a sales ad for the dvd or download.:thumbs:
     
  7. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    :laugh: Rock & roll and Donny Osmand in the same sentence>:laugh:
    I think that may be the reason he went to Broadway.
     
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The last time I saw one of those debates I noticed that some non-Christians walked out more convinced of their position than ever before. They pointed out how "wrong" their opponent was when I actually saw their opponent as right. So how does that bring people to Christ?

    Ehrman is a professed agnostic. He has been invited to teach his views to anyone present (that includes anyone who will listen). That is against scripture. Jude says to not invite him in and Mark says to be careful what you listen to. That man has no business having a listening audience. He speaks against scripture and you suggest that people pay money to listen to him? I can listen to those agnostics (non-believers) online on their website if I want to spend my time studying error rather than the word of God. Why not invite the Mormon bishop and the JW elder while you are at it too? I know scholars who will not debate those people because they see it as foolish. Those men's hearts are hard and you suggest Christians give them an audience?

    Most Christians do not know their Bibles very well so why should they spend they time listening to the arrogant and foolish?

    Seems that the U.S. government is wiser than a lot of Christians. At least they study a real dollar bill to identify the frauds. But Christians throw away the bible and listen to and study the fauds and imposters. We are truly in the last days.

    Do you know how to identify a crooked stick? You lay a straight one next to it.

    Study the "straight stick" of the word of God not a fool's commentary about what he thinks about it.
     
    #28 gb93433, Jan 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2009
  9. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Good point. THought I had hoped a few would have downloaded and listened, that THEN discussed :)

    BUt sadly many would rather attack their brother than to .....but I digress.

    Anyway, the major point of the debate was:
    Can the Bible be inspired in light of textual variation.

    Oddly many KJVO advocates would actually have to side with Ehrman in principle and White in conclusion.
    Very odd. (and inconsistent)
     
  10. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    Thanks,

    Why does this not surprise me?
     
  11. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I agree that Christians need to learn their Bible well. But many who attend these debates do know their Bible and they still learn from this.

    And these are not being held in a church (at least not the ones I know of), so it is not the same as inviting Erhman to speak in your church.

    Everyone knows ahead of time it is a debate. It is for adults who supposedly can handle it. Just because some unbelievers might walk out does not mean it was for naught. I don't think the main purpose is for unbelievers but to equip beleivers. I learn from this kind of exchange because you learn about the flaws and weaknesses of the arguments used against the faith. Yes, you can learn that other ways, but a debate (if the Christian debater is good) also offers an excellent "live" way to see defense of the faith in action.

    So you don't want to go - fine. If others learn from it, why do you oppose it?
     
  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    A good book for you to read is The Debate Strategies of Jesus Christ. It obtained it from www.ageslibrary.com. It is far superior to any debate I have ever heard.

    You might learn but young Christians and non-Christians are not prepared and in listening to him will not understand and may waver in the young faith. The Christian faith is not about winning debates. It is about truth and Christ. Ehrman skirts the truth and some very basic points. A good debater can make a person look like dirt and be totally wrong while winning the debate. I have listened to the Ehrman online from his website.

    Textual criticism is not something most Christians have a clue about. One can learn tons more from the Christian scholars than from the agnostic Ehrman who is half baked in his approach. He completely misses so many things. If he were honest he would not skirt those issues. If a Christian debates him it is like debating Satan. We see what Jesus did in the Bible. Ehrman graduated from some good Christian schools and turned his back on God. What kind of a testimonuy is that. The Bible clearly says what to do with those people in Mt. 18.

    To give a 2 or 3 hour debate is not much education about the essentials. It is basically a dog and pony show. It does little to educate Christians about textual criticism. There are many books one can read and that would take hours and hours and that same benefit cannot be obtained in a 2 or 3 hour dog and pony show. Show me one instance where a Christian or non-Christian benefited from that sort of thing.

    He is an avowed agnostic. He states that he went to very good Christian schools that many have graduated from. His stating that fact tends to discredit the work of some very high quality Christian schools.

    I can just imagine the scenario.
     
    #32 gb93433, Jan 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2009
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I think you are overreacting. The debate info I posted is at a seminary and mostly seminary students will probably attend.

    Yes, imagine the scenario: Erhman's flawed arguments being exposed. I saw this firsthand myself at a seminary 3 years ago.
     
  14. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Yes, and this is why the work that White and others are doing is important.
    Because of this ignorance, people are having their faith challenged by people such as Ehrman.


    I actually consider it an insult to people's intelligence to tell them that they are too ignorant to benefit from such an exchange.
    Yes, people are ignorant but that is precisely WHY people need this type of education.
     
  15. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    I don't think anyone is insulting others' intelligence. Textual criticism is BORING, but important. Frankly most Christians in our pews are challenged to name all of the books of the Bible much less discuss how various textual apparatus contribute to a solid formulation of the received text. That isn't being insulting, just honest.

    Perhaps my point (maybe poorly stated) is more about the trend in evangelicalism to charge for everything. Buy this book! Attend this conference! Pay for this DVD! Money money money for growth. Granted there's a whole lot of money of Christianity...but it feels like we're slouching towards Rome too often here.

    The big banner ministries (with some notable exceptions) are money driven. I have a problem with that. Why do I need to pay $$$ for all of this stuff when most of it should be provided for low to no cost so I might grow. Think about some of the great ministries that built Christianity:
    * George Muller had strict guidelines about money and his tract society provided millions of pages a year in free resources that were good (not leading to buy something else.)
    * Charles Sheldon's In His Steps was given out for free (and the author made no objection to the severe copyright infringement because he believed the book was offering people an opportunity to hear the Gospel.
    * Copies of John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress were handed out for free because people believed in the message contained therein.
    * Major ministry services (what we might call conferences today) were provided for free for those who attended and supported by free will offerings.

    My point is that too much of our Christian world today is being driven by the dollar. We have such a high cost to get growth materials it seems to stunt the message of free grace provided for by Christ.

    Now I'm not against asking for some money to cover publication cost. But the gravy train is pretty materialistic and horrible when we get down to it. How many conferences (that we've paid absorbitant dollars to attend) end up being one long commercial?

    "Hey (honorary) Dr. XYZ is speaking on stewardship. Every church leader should go out and buy his resource kit for $150 at our curriculum center right after he speaks."
    "You just heard the Cheesy Band of Day and you need to get their CD, available at our giant resource center for $15 today."
    etc etc etc

    It bothers me. Imagine if we took the money used by individuals to buy and attend even this debate between Drs White and Ehrman and gave it to missions. How many churches could we start that would begin changing people's lives?

    I think our priorities are all messed up right now. Maybe that is the evangelical identity crisis. We've got messed up priorities. It's all about the $$$ and superstardom and not enough about sacrifice and Jesus Christ.

    Maybe I'm stating really poorly. I'm not against opportunities like this to engage in meaningful debates. But I think about when Ravi Zacharias and William Lane Craig presented up at Harvard and opened the floor for questions. The auditorium (wasn't cheap) was packed and it was free. It is some of the best stuff I've ever heard.

    Why do we need to constantly be pumping bucks into commercial ministries when the same resources could be used to support more meaningful ministry. :)
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Amen! Amen! and Amen! :thumbs:
     
  17. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I don't know anyone being made rich off debates. Many people only have their expenses paid and maybe an honorarium. Some of these people don't get paid at all and the costs are simply the costs of making CDs and videos plus taxes.

    Most places that sponsor these debates are ministries that are underfunded or seminaries, and the seminaries are not rich at all.
     
  18. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Dude, what do you think White was doing?
    He WAS evangelizing!
    He WAS proclaiming and defending the Gospel!
    Every dime was spent in the efforts of changing people's lives with the Gospel and the strengthening of the faith of believers.

    Now I am going to turn the tables a bit.

    It is YOU that is greedy.
    It is YOU that demand that people give away their hard earned work for free.

    Greed goes both ways.

    I will readily admit there are many, many greedy religious leaders out there. But there are also a lot of cheap people that want a handout for everything and do not respect the work of others.

    I hope I do not come across too harsh and I do not know if you are personally guilty of any of this but I am trying to show you another perspective on this.

    One last thing, please do not lump legitimate ministries such as Alpha and Omega with frauds like many TV preachers.
     
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    The debate at the Fort Lauderdale Sheraton was actually quite a bargain, compared to the big bucks one had to shell out for the James White Celebrity Cruise that followed:

    "Michael's Club features hand-rolled cigars, a well-stocked humidor, and a comprehensive aperitif menu."

    "Passengers sip fine wines and refreshing cocktails at Cova Café Milano, one of many lounges onboard the Century."

    "Custom-designed for Celebrity by the prestigious Steiner Leisure Ltd. of London, The AquaSpa is a 10,000-square-foot spa environment. Offering the most complete beauty, health and fitness services at sea. Come invigorate and indulge your body and soul."
     
    #39 Jerome, Jan 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2009
  20. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    Okay, let's take some deep breaths and chill for a second. I'm not objecting to Dr. White's presentation...I'm objecting that a Christian ministry charges $15 for a digital copy of the presentation. Why $5 for something that comprises electronics and neutrons and has no physical part?

    My contention is that it is part of a wider contagion that is poisoning evangelical Christianity.

    Thank you in advance for making this debate, suddenly and saddly, personal. What have I said about you to cause you to do this?

    I'm not questioning Dr. White, nor his credentials...though they might be worth examining. I'm asking how can a ministry of the (free) Gospel of Jesus Christ justify charging incredible fees for everything they provide.

    Wow

    uh, really don't know how to reply here. You know, I'm not going to dignify it with a reply.

    There are better ways to show perspective man.

    Okay. So what justifies a ministry charging exorbitant sums for products it might provide for free, or at little cost?

    Do we seriously believe that this is different than the moneychangers in the Temple?

    I'm okay with a ministry asking for honest people to pay a nominal fee to cover the cost of their products. Ironically smaller ministries end up barely breaking even because their start up costs are so tremendous. Take Dave Ramsey's product line for instance. (I'm not attacking Dave Ramsey) He charges $100 for his starter kit of Financial Peace University. So I'm trying to get a couple that are barely making their mortgage to take his course and they have to pay $100 up front before getting any advice? Seriously? What is the justification here?

    Just one example...I see there is another thread here so I'll reply with vigor there. But do you see where I'm going?
     
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