Did the Son ask the Father to spare Him the agony of the cross?

Christ as man purposefully limited His knowledge about some things. So I don't believe that Satan could have over-ruled the plan and word of God, but I believe that Jesus was simply being completely humble and submissive. I have a lot less trouble with this than with the idea that Jesus would willingly make Himself a false prophet by not going to the cross!

The phrase "except I drink it" (Matt. 26:42) in Greek is a third class conditional sentence, often showing considerable doubt. In this case therefore Jesus is giving a hypothetical, not saying that He defintely thought He would die in the garden.

Edited in: But actually, I just believe this was a physical condition caused by incredible stress that might lead to His death. I don't think there is any Biblical evidence that Satan was trying to kill Jesus in the garden.

 

Keep quoting this, kyredneck. :thumbs: No one has yet answered it.

If Heb. 5:7 is talking about the garden of Gethsemane prayer--and most commentators agree that it was--than there is only one way to interpret it. Christ was prevented from dying in the garden so that He could go on to the cross. You folks who are interpreting the Matthew passage otherwise have to interpret Heb. 5:7 to make your position complete.

 

Maybe a first on BB... I am beginning to think that maybe you're right... but just maybe! :laugh:

 

John 18;11 The garden prayer session has ended. They have found Jesus of Nazareth and are procuring him for he arrest, trial and death...........

"Jesus therefore said unto Peter, Put up the sword into the sheath: THE CUP which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?"........the cup is yet to be taken. It is future. It is his death on the cross.

He could not empty the cup in the garden and still speak of the cup coming in the future. I shall stick with the cross, his death. His sacrifice for sinful men, women and children all throughout history.

Cheers,

Jim

 

"We have a great deal to say about this, and it’s difficult to explain, since you have become slow to understand." :laugh:
[Heb 5:11 HCSB]

Rob

 

Hebrews 5:7 (NIV) "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."

Days is plural....prayers is plural.......petitions is plural......So, this passage has reference to the many times Jesus prayed and petitioned to the Father, and not a singular incident.

Even Judas knew Jesus prayed often in the garden location.

Cheers,

Jim

 

This is very simple to explain. "Cup" is simply a metaphor for death, not solely the death of the cross. Jesus referred to the cup in the garden as "this cup." That to me says it is not the cup the Father had given Jesus to drink. So later Jesus distinguishes the cups by calling the cup of the cross death the one His Father gave Him.

I think the Greek also distinguishes the cups. In John 18:11 a literal translation of the Greek would be, "the cup, the one the Father gave me." This distinguishes that cup clearly from other cups of death.

Again, remember that when He entered the garden, He was "exceedingly sorrowful unto death." Not only was He about to carry the sins of mankind, He was being betrayed by one of his disciple-friends, and all the others would forsake him, with Peter even denying Him.

To bolster this position that there was more than one cup, it is by no means clear in church history that the cup in the garden must have meant death on the cross. For example, Dionysius (c. 190-264) believed the cup was the temptation in the garden (Exegetical Fragments, "On Luke 22:42, etc.").

Men in modern times who have taken the position that the garden cup was death in the garden include: F. B. Meyer, John R. Rice and A. F. Shauffler.

 

Wow, I'm honored! Keep thinking. :laugh:

 

Well, men such as Morris, John Broadus, Norval Geldenhuys (Princeton and Cambridge universities), F.F. Bruce, William Lane, Western Kentucky (new Testament studies).

No matter which version I read, including the Greek New Testament, I get the same understanding of the cup.

Cheers,

Jim

I am in very good company.

Cheers,

Jim

 

So Brother Jim, are you comfortable then with Jesus praying a prayer which, if answered, would make Himself into a false prophet? He clearly prophesied that He would die on the cross (Matt. 20:17-19).

 

OK, Iwill buy your notion and that makes John a liar! And the bible unworthy of truth.

The Greek meaning of cup is a drinking cup and the figurative understanding is fate........it is hardly a cup of water John is talking about,,,,,,,,and fate fits well with the cross.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Further,,you totlly ignore the huge IF,,which I capitalized three times before

Cheers,

Jim

 

Brother Jim, I hate to contradict you, but the figurative meaning of "cup" is not just fate, but can be blessing (1 Cor. 10:16), wrath (Rev. 14:10), suffering (John 14:22; John did not die as a martyr, but he did suffer), and the vessel of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees (Matt. 23:25). So the meaning of cup as death or fate is not monolithic in the Bible.

 

How does your take avoid that dilemma? Did Christ doubt God's Word when he wondered whether or not it were God's will that He die in the Garden?