Discussion continued from "Would you give up your rock"

This debate is not limited to Traditional v Contemporary, the debate is wheather or not it is sinful to listen to secular music, particularly the music we listened to before our conversion.

It was necessary to establish that music has the power to induce emotion in the listener. This has been agreed upon. Now the debate is moving on.

 

I'm no lover of Christian Rock, as you know, but again this debate is not limited to that. The original question from Travelsong was : What is my sin? He listen's to Bob Dylan among others so it's not a question of traditional or contemporary Christian music.

 

I stand corrected, Enda. I may just be too shallow for this conversation... I'll gracefully bow out and just read and not offer my opinions.

 

Then those are your associations. It does not say anything about the music in itself, except that in this case, what you were familiar with before was being used for negaive purposes, then you gave it up, and the hymns were the "new" music in your "new life". The mistake Traditional only advocates make is generalizing this to everyone. To me, it's almost the opposite, as the old hymns remind me of dead old traditional churches where just showing up made people "good", and Christ was secondary to tradition (plus all the other covered up sin of past society, and just the whole pretense of rightoeusness characteristic of then). The newer stuff reminds me of a church that has repented of a lot of the ignorance and phoniness of the past, though as then, everything is still not perfect, of course. I just learned to separate the misuse of the newer styles by the the secular music industry from the Christians' use of it (That was easy, because I didn't know what a lot of secular songs were abiout until later, and the styles actually remind me of the joys and innocence of childhood!)

No, it's just moving back around to another quadrant of the circle.
Once again, music being "secular" is about who wrote it, and what the song is about, not the style, and whether the style has some negative power or influence other than association. There is a lot of classical that is "seculatr", but nobody says that is wrong, because the music critics see the style as being "acceptable", but they have not proven Biblically or otherwise that the style is what makes music innately sacred or secular, beyond, once again, pure personal association (or certain extremes such as Thrash, etc).
When Travelsong asked "what is my sin", what he was clearly getting at was how is the STYLE making him sin; because even if it was a Christian song using the same style, you and others would claim it was sin.

 

I won't even bother to post, it seems there are like minded individuals who are holding their own very well here, I would just like to say

Amen and me too

 

LOL! Which ones are like-minded Dave?

 

Travelsong,

I have plenty to say about your last post but won't have time to make the proper response until mon/tues next week. I need a break from all this ridicule I'll just make one point in the meantime.

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That's the last time I'll try to edit anything.

The point I wanted to make was this. When I said that the morality of music was irrelevant, I meant only that it is irrelevant to this debate. I don't believe that music is amoral, I believe Aaron explained this to you a few weeks ago, I'm surprised you still hold to this error.

I'll be back next week, in the meantime here's something that should give you hours of enjoyment, just exercise that free will.

Turn up your speakers and Click Here

 

I haven't forgotten about you.

I just haven't had the time to sit down and think about this. The temperature is in the 80's here believe it or not, so I'm enjoying the sunshine while it lasts. I'm also doing some research on another topic so my time on the net has been devoted to it.

Sorry for keeping you hanging on, but when I have ample time I'll dig up the thread again. Trust me.

 

Travelsong, your arguments have made total sense. Is there a current thread on the morality of music? I'm curious to see what everyone has to say on it.

Bro Enda, I think you said something about being a new creature and listening to music that is different from our pre-conversion. What about those who grew up in a Christian home, or maybe not even Christian, but still listened to classical, or traditional music? Are they required to find something new as well? Why can't contemporary Christian music, or Christian rock, be considered "new" for those people?

 

Fair question. When we get saved we look at things from a spiritual viewpoint rather than from a fleshly perspective.

I listened to rock/pop music prior to my conversion and after I was saved I could not see anything spiritually positive in this music hence being a new (spiritually awakened) creature I started to listen to traditional Christian hymns which I found/find has a positive affect on my spiritual well-being.

If someone grew up in a Christian home where they listened to traditional hymns before their conversion it doesn't follow that they must change their listening habits after they get saved. They can listen to the same hymns and should be able to appreciate them for what they are because as a new creature they have been spiritually awakened. If you don't appreciate hymns because they do nothing for you spiritually, well, I just can't understand that.

Being new creatures we change the WAY we listen to music and must decide wheather or not it is glorifying to God rather than just listening to what is pleasing to the ear.

 

Travelsong,

Maybe we should recap before we proceed with the discussion.

To my mind we both agree that music can effect ones emotions, it can INDUCE or CAUSE emotion within a listener.

However, you say:

Just to clarify:

1. Are you saying that ALL those who listen to secular music are ALWAYS in control of how much that music effects them emotionally? or are you speaking from a personal point of view here?

2. Could you define EXACTLY what you mean by willingly receptive, and explain how you have arrived at this definition?

Enda

 

(Bro Enda)
If you don't appreciate hymns because they do nothing for you spiritually, well, I just can't understand that.

(Fish)
Well, they don't do as much for me as for some people, because I grew up listening to them all the time, and so they've just become "old-hat" so-to-speak. They still have great lyrics, but it's like hearing the same Bible story over and over again without any new depths coming out of it.

Also, what makes a hymn inherently good? What is Godly about the music of a hymn? Not the words, just the music.

 

(Bro Enda)
1. Are you saying that ALL those who listen to secular music are ALWAYS in control of how much that music effects them emotionally? or are you speaking from a personal point of view here?

(Fish)
I'm going to answer this, but I may or may not agree with Travelsong, guess we'll see. I don't believe that everyone is always in control of how music affects them. But Christians, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, can control their bodies and minds and what things can control or effect them. Even those who are not saved can still have a limited amount of control. Like Travel was saying, if a person is just very happy about something, listening to a funeral dirge will not cause them to become sad against their will. If they have something in their life for them to be sad about, and it comes to their mind, then they will be more likely to be effected by the music.

 

Fish,
To me the most imprtant thing is the way the music and the words are mixed together. The lyrics (which are spiritual in nature) should be heard CLEARLY above the music. This is of utmost importance in worship.

Of course some professionally produced traditional hymns are accompanied by large orchestras etc. This can sometimes distract from the Christian message of the lyrics, personally I'd prefer to listen to hymns which are accompanied by piano or maybe accoustic guitar, unfortunately it's not easy to find good Christian music like this these days.

Also I am not saying that it is sinful to listen to music which evokes positive feelings, eg. a lot of classical music can be relaxing, I wouldn't have a problem with someone listening to music in order to unwind etc. the problem arises when this type of music is accompanied by negative lyrics.

Your answer to the other question is very interesting but I'll wait to hear what Travelsong says before I respond.

 

And what is your Scriptural support for this? Interestingly enough, we have psalms that proclaim praising God through instruments with no mention of vocal accompaniment. Is it possible to worship God with perhaps just the piano and no voice?

So you have a preference. That's fine. Others do not have such a preference.

Some classical music can evoke negative emotions (Night on Bald Mountain, the first movement of Beethoven's Sonate Pathetique). Are these okay?