Discussion of Predestination

The old comparison to the original 99 trick. That's the 4th time I fell for it this month.

...or...

That's the second silliest comment I've ever read.

I loved that show. They used the same jokes again and again and again, and I laughed every time.

 

Do you remember the cone of silence? Now that was one funny scene.

 

LOL, yes. I practically have a photgraphic memory for multimedia like movies and TV shows. My kids inherited it, so we drive people crazy by quoting whole scenes from cartoons, etc., verbatim. It's a shame - I wish I had as good a memory for what I read in books. It would be a lot more useful.

 

Yes I know what you mean. All my culture today I owe to the Gong Show. :laugh:

 

Irresistible Grace

The truth of the matter it is resistible, if it wasn't then the young rich ruler would of gave up everything and walked with Jesus.

God is in control, when He gave men over to thier own evil desires.

We are not to be arrogant, but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either

He cut people out not because He did not chose them, but because of unbelief.

Romans 11:
19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

We do have a hedge of protection, even unbelievers or there would be caos, but God can take this hedge of protection away to.

Jonah and the fish is the best way to see how God works. He doesn't change our free will, he can lead us where He wants us to go or we will perish. You can either go the hard way or the easy way.

The very elect of God will be cut out for unbelief, we can be arragont if we want, but our only hope for us is Jesus.

Men have chosen themselves and call themselves the elect of God. The only guarentee in scripture for salvation is to trust in Jesus.

God is no respector of person, God has given you the same hope as He did the whole world and made those who believe His messengers.

Believers have been predestined to salvation, no one has been predestined to believe.

God is given to us what to believe and what our faith should be through His word, you either you accept or you don't it your own choice by your own free.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Men continue to blame God for thier predicament, when God gave the world the way out through Jesus.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

It doesn't say it was because they were not chosen, but because of unbelief

As God says'
Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

Psalms,
Your post is very well written, and I respect your opinion. It does follow that if in fact you do believe that man has free will or choice in salvation then you believe it is resistable, otherwise it would not be a choice.

But, if you believe in election, it also follows that once the Holy Spirit quickens, the process must work to glorification.

With the example of the rich young ruler, I would say he couldnt follow Jesus because he did not have it within him to say yes, not being quickened, and unelect.

Peace to you, Michael

 

Holy Spirit

With the young rich ruler he was quickened by the Holy Spirit throgh the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life. He was elected by God the Father through Jesus. He was drawn to Jesus by the Father or He wouldn't of came to Jesus to seek eternal life.

The young rich ruler has a choice, just like you did. You could of walked away from the grace of God.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, just as the scripture says.

On these terms whosever believes in Him shall be saved and whosoever does not shall be condemned.

The door was closed, but God the Father through Jesus has opened the door for the world and made us who believe the messenger of it.

2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us...

The Baptist use to believe that only at the cross that God has given men the ability to make a choice.

We are such a stubburn people, that even if God came down from heaven and said He loved the world, we would not believe Him

 

I have often used the word coerce to describe God's work in changing the will, but with the understanding that by coerce I mean an assertive influence, not a violent or forceful imposition. Recognizing the Westminster (and I think the 1689) reference to the doctrine that God does "no violence to the will", I would not use "coerce" in such a way as to imply force or violence. We do not believe that God drags people into His Kingdom kicking and screaming against their will, but that God by His Spirit "infuses" a Godly nature into the hearts of sinners, effecting a change in their natures that makes the re-born sinner perfectly willing to receive Christ.

So, God "changes" a sinner in the new birth, and, I believe, that reborn sinner is "coerced" in the conversion experience by his new nature and will in making Godly decisions.

 

You state that "the above statement is almost blasphemy" however, you will not let go of your free will theology. To say an unelect and elect are the same as you did is nonsense. How can you compare your statement with an everyday situation of the choice an unregenerated man has? How about if you were about to receive a report card at college and the professor says do you want an F+ or an F? (Im beginning to think you had lots of courses like that).

How can you possibly say the unelect and the elect are the same? By definition, the elect have received the grace of God.

By the way, conviction of sin requires regeneration, which results in salvation. Again, you are implying the process of salvation can be interupted by man. You seem to me to be denying irresistable grace, another sign of armininism. Now, you might say an unregenerated person could be sorry for his sins, but not Godly sorrow, maybe he got caught, or lost a family, job etc. Godly conviction results in repentence and salvation.

To call someone's statement blasphemy because they dont agree with you is outrageous. With the inconsistency of your arguments, I submit you are so confused as not to know blasphemy if it came up and introduced itself.

 

Well Saturn I think he's saying that the yet-converted elect are the same as the non-elect in their inability to please God or to approach His standard of righteousness. Don't see a problem there.

 

I do. He is limiting God by the element of time. I also have a problem with his saying that one can have Godly conviction without repentence and salvation. But most of all, I have a problem with his name calling in this and other threads, as in this case, using the term "Blasphemy" to describe someone who does not agree with his flawed arguments.

 

I re-read his post, and while I think his use of "blasphemy" was a little on the harsh side (I might have used the word myself on any given day), I find no problem with the idea that the non-elect can have a sense of conviction of sin, but not savingly. I think it's orthodox. Conviction as in dread, as "the devils believe, and tremble".

I think committing the "anti-halo" effect. You've assigned yourself the position of Inspector of Calvinist Internal Affairs C.O.P. You're technically right in your critcisms but the attitude is a bit waring. You're guilty of the thing you allege to despise - using harsh tones and words.

Now don't accuse me of being "on his side" in this thing you're trying to heat up - in fact, see my self-defense of the role of coercion in salvation - I'm not agreeing with everying BP/T is saying.

 

I understand your message. The problem here is this has been an ongoing problem in this and other threads that have been closed. Forget the theology for a minute. From this poster have come a continual stream of names, and at one point, even putting another posters name in the title of a thread in a defamatory way, which was promptly changed by the moderators.

Ok back to the theology. Conviction in a Godly sense is agreeing with God that you have sinned, that you are sorry because you have sinned against a Holy God. This leads to repentence,(turning around), and salvation. Only regeneration produces Godly sorrow. Now, there are lots of worldly convictions. The devils trimble not because they love the Lord, but because they are afraid of the power He has over them. In the same way, an unregenerated person is sorry because he got caught (afraid of the power of the law, afraid of the teacher who is going to give an F because you cheated, afraid of the spouse because one got caught cheating), big difference.

This is not to me a matter of taking sides. This is a matter of discussion amongst Christians. Now, a pastor (so the profile says) is held to a higher standard than the average joe like me. He is an example, a leader. To sling out names because one disagrees is outrageous. Self confession, one of my problems is dealing with those that I perceive as arrogant, "holier than thou", rude, looking down the ole nose, and so forth. Yes, I need to deal with that.

 

Lord, help us all to find that fine line between boldness and pride. And all God's people said....

 

Holy Spirit

When the words of Jesus is Spoken which is Spirit and life it does do a work in us, but we still have our free will.

If He couldn't follow Jesus then Jesus would not of offered to him

Jesus is no deceiver, when He offers something, you can take it.

Jesus words is our faith, in which we can accept or walk away like the young rich ruler.

Don't let men deceive when Jesus made His offer it was for the world.

God is true to His word and you can believe Him

God wants all men to be save and come to the knowledge of the truth and you can put that in the bank.

If God as these men say can put belief in you, He can also place life and death in front of you and that is the truth. So choose life so you may life. You can't blame God any more. He is no respector of person the same hope you have He has given to the world, and made those who believe the messengers

 

Hi Saturneptune;
I got another call last night to come to Columbus, OH to baptize another woman with cancer and I didn't get in there until 1:am this morning and as soon as I got there they told me she had died. So,I am back home now after about 9 hours of driving but have to preach funeral Monday. Pray for the family and me. You talk about tired I sure am. They backed up a hole of water in the creek for the man I have to baptize tomorrow. One made alive and one died. Life goes by. peace

 

Good to see you back, Brother Bob. That is an amazing series of events. You have got to be tired. We will be praying for the family and your safe return. God bless you and your ministry.

 

In part we are crossing meanings of words. So let me see if I understand what you're saying here.

Freewill = the freedom to choose God on ones own will. Which we both agree we do not.

Free moral agency = the freedom to choose a good deed or a bad deed. If this is what you mean, I would agree with this.

I brought this up a few months ago and added the effect that this has in the unsaved man, and I had nearly the whole board on my back. But, what else is new?

This is what I added.

...I do not deny that man can and sometimes does choose to do good. But this does not help man. If fact it hurts the unsaved man. Any good deed that we do, tis very easy to take on pride along with the good deed. The story I told was about a simple building of a dog house. If we build a good dog house we feel a pride about the work we have done. If we have 2-3 people tell us that the dog house looks good, by the end of the day, we cannot help but feel like we are a good dog house builder. Pride is near to our heart or in our heart with each good deed.

Moral deeds often is what keeps the unsaved from Christ. They feel, I'm not so bad, for I do this that and the other, so if there is a God, He will understand. Good deeds does not help us, it only hurts us. In some cases this even takes place after salvation. If we do good deeds for the wrong reason, it is nothing but sin. All works done by those in Christ should be done in love of our Lord.


In Christ...James