Dispensationalism and the Doctrine of Election

Dr.K, I know you insist that you are neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist, but from your articles you squarely fit into the former category.You're known by the company you keep.The men you quote approvingly from are in the Semi-Pelagian to Arminian range.It's hard to be in a zone between these camps. ( Amyraldianism doesn't legitimately count.) These are some of your favorites: Robert Shank, Adam Clarke, George Bryson, Robert Lightner, Norm Geisler and Lewis S. Chafer. A couple of these might have described themselves as Moderate Calvinists, but they clearly are not soteriologically.I'm surprised you didn't include George Zeller.

 

Very well done.

 

Do you now disagree with anything you quoted from those six gentlemen? Or do you remain allied with their views which you furnished?To my knowledge, please corect me if I'm wrong, you cited them in support of your views.

 

Thank you Dr. Ketchum

Thank you for your response Dr. Ketchum, and can appreciate your stance as most Christians do see, and look for that "Kingdom which was at hand" to come, and to be part of "national Israel.

But I find contradiction in His Word in this approach. I cannot find where Christ Jesus revealed to Paul, we are to believe we will be in the "Kingdom Jesus gives to the twelve earthly Apostles" as shown in Luke 22:29, "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me. This is promised before the "mystery" is revealed. I find myself in the SON of God's Kingdom in whom those of "national Israel" will come to Worship God.

I personally see more than what you present of what God had hidden. A couple of things I notice is not until after Damascus Road is through faith presented to any as to how we are Justified in the eyes of God. The "Body of Christ" is unknown to man until Christ Jesus revealed this to Paul.

Amen! Israel is now Lo-ammi: "Not My People" (Hosea 1:9). We today are not sons of God by Covenant, but are sons of God, in Christ.

I just cannot find that I have been promised the Earth.

 

Just passing by and stopped in for a minute.

I believe you have a dichotomy here, the Body of Christ consisting of believers and unbelievers [national Israel]!!!!!!!!!:BangHead: But then dispensationalism is not Baptist Doctrine but the doctrine of Darby and Scofield. :tonofbricks:

Baptist Doctrine is reasonably well summarized in the Abstract of Principles [presented below] of the first Southern Baptist Seminary founded by Boyce, Manly, and Broadus in 1858.

I. The Scriptures
The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.

II. God
There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of Himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.

III. The Trinity
God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.

IV. Providence
God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

V. Election
Election is God’s eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life—not because of foreseen merit in them, but of His mere mercy in Christ—in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

VI. The Fall of Man
God originally created Man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.

VII. The Mediator
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law; suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.

VIII. Regeneration
Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.

IX. Repentance
Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

X. Faith
Saving faith is the belief, on God’s authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.

XI. Justification
Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

XII. Sanctification
Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified by God’s word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ’s commands.

XIII. Perseverance of the Saints
Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

XIV. The Church
The Lord Jesus is the head of the Church, which is composed of all His true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to His commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches He hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which He hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops or Elders, and Deacons.

XV. Baptism
Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of Abstract of Principles giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life. It is prerequisite to church fellowship, and to participation in the Lord’s Supper.

XVI. The Lord’s Supper
The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be observed by His churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate His death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with Him, and of their church fellowship.

XVII. The Lord’s Day
The Lord’s Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, resting from worldly employments and amusements, works of necessity and mercy only excepted.

XVIII. Liberty of Conscience
God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

XIX. The Resurrection
The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.:godisgood:

XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.:godisgood:


It was required that every professor of the institution be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in the seminary be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles. Departure from these principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees.

Note particularly items 14, 19, and 20. No mention of national Israel in the Church. No mention of a pretrib rapture, seven year tribulation, or earthly millennial reign.

 

Note also numbers 4,5,6,8,9 and 10. Yes, Dr.K. would not have been accepted at SBS 150 years ago.Actually, he would not have been accepted with his currently held beliefs for a long time among mainstream Baptist thought prior to 1858 and continuing until the 1920's or so.

 

You're strong in your faith Dr. Ketchum, and I in mine

I believe these verses, just as you, but how can this reference apply to we today, that is, to those in the "Body of Christ"?

As one believing Paul was given a "dispensational" gospel for this Grace period (without depending on our works to hold on to until He returns at the end of the tribulation), the verses above looks to apply to that which was prophesied, viz. the tribulation for we can not find here the Grace of God through faith only in Christ Jesus.

As Paul defends his Apostleship, we are told there are Judaziers in the Corinthian church. II Corinthians 11:1-5 , "Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
5. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles."

Don't we find here another gospel, that is not another gospel, yet it is not for we today? Please witness what Paul tells us Galatians 1:6-9. "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Please continue into Galatians 4. Are we "heirs of God through Abraham? What does verse seven and on through verse 11 reveal to us? It is through Christ we become sons of God, because of faithful Abraham we see in Galatians 3:9. The purpose of God is not Abraham, but Christ Jesus, the only begotten Son of God our Father.

I'll stick with the finished purpose of God, which is Jesus Christ His only begotten Son. Do we not find in Ephesians 2:11-13 we were without Christ, not part of Israel, not part of the covenants, no hope, and without God in the world? Does verse 13 speak of Abraham to us, or is it we are now brought near by the blood of Christ. A worldly seed was brought forth from Abraham, and a heavenly seed was brought forth from God who ascended to heaven to sit beside His Father. Praise God for Abraham, and Praise God for allowing we Gentiles to have our own Apostle to guide us to the "Body of Christ", before unknown to any man.

 

Actually, this is not true. While there are many Calvinists at Southern it is certainly not a one-sided institution. Dr. Mohler is a 5-pointer. The former dean of the School of Theology, Danny Akin (who is now president of Southeastern), is most certainly not a Calvinist. He told me he hovers between two and three points--a traditional/historic Arminian.

I have known non-Calvinists from Southern and Calvinists from Southern. As far as the faculty is concerned, there are both Calvinists and Arminians and both viewpoints are taught.

Also, for many years Southern was a "liberal" school and there is no such thing as a liberal Calvinist, just like there is no such thing as a square circle.

So, no, Southern has not "always" been a Calvinist institution. Actually, I think Dr. Mohler would bristle at the term "Calvinist Institution." He'd probably prefer something like "Institution committed to the sufficiency of scripture and biblical theology."

Blessings,

The Archangel
SBTS 2007

 

Well, it is not my intent to hijack this thread. Because I do not intend to hijack the thread, I'll state this clearly: Brother, you are simply wrong and your statements are built on inaccuracies. The Abstract of Principles allows for both Calvinism and Arminianism. Southern does not and is not ignoring the Abstract as every tenured professor signs them pledging to "Teach in accordance with and not contrary to..."

That you would suggest Southern is "Ignoring the Word of God" is quite offensive. You need to get your facts straight.

With all due respect and blessings,

The Archangel

 

Well, the level of biblical fidelity now exhibited at Southern is leaps and bounds ahead of where the Seminary was in it's so-called "liberal" days.

From what I've heard the liberal days were quite dark and large amount vitriol was hurled at Dr. Mohler after he became President. Danny Akin once told me about the students (so-called "Christians") leaving human waste in his parking spot. It got so bad (students threatening him and his children) that the State Police used to spend the night in his driveway.

It is certainly much better now.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

All Scripture From TNIV, Except Where Noted

Dr.K., I read chapter 13. A couple of items.

You said people "become elect." That is not biblical. Show where anyone becomes elect.

I think you are confusing election with regeneration.An elect individual remains an ungodly sinner until God the Father draws him to the Son through through regeneration.So he becomes regenerate, but does not become elect.Election is fromeverlasting.

You said :"One becomes a member of God's family by a choice through faith.Man's choice is salvation."

No, you got that one wrong. Biblical election is God doing the choosing, not man.And just a little earlier you had quoted John 1:13 ! I'll quote it from TNIV:"children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

Also, for your consideration, Romans 9:16 :"It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

James 1:18 :"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth,that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created."

You said :"The word elect is never used regarding salvation. Election is vocational, not salvational." That's an utter denial of biblical truth.

2 Thess. 2:13,14 :" But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (NIV)

Biblical election is toward salvation ( ok, excepting the case of the elect angels and Christ Himself).

The words "call", "called","calling" are tied up in election.Those who he called according to his purpose in Romans 8:28&30.1 Cor. 1:24:"but to those who God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."1:26:..."think of what you were when you were called."verse 27:"But God chose"verse 28:"He chose".The word "called" occurs nine times in chapter seven of 1 Cor. alone.See 1:9 :"God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Galatians 1:6 :"...the one who called you by the grace of Christ..." 1:15:..."called me by his grace..." 5:8:..."the one who calls you."

1 Thess. 2:12 : ..."who calls you into his kingdom and glory." 4:7:"For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life." 5:24:"The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it."

Look at 2 Peter 1:9 where calling and election are bound up with one another. :"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election."

I don't know why you insist that election has nothing to do with salvation. You might as well maintain the silly notion that sanctification has nothing to do with holiness!

2 Tim. 1:9 :"who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace."

What do you do with the fact that those who the Father appointed will believe? The ordination or decree determines those who will obtain salvation. God has marked-out certain people who He brings to a saving knowledge of Himself.

Dr.K., you put the following into a compartment that supposedly deals with Israelites alone.

Matt. 24:22,24,31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; 1 Peter 2:6; and 2 John 1:1,13. You have no warrannt to declare that these reference to His elect are all referencing Jews only. You sound like a hyper-Dispensationalist that Dr. Ironside warned about. Harry Ironside was certaainly a Dispensationalist -- but he wasn't hyper about it. You, on the other hand, are.

In Romans 9 the corporate aspect is not primary-- but the singular view is prominent. Look at verse 18:"Therefore God has merecy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Specific names are particularized. Jacob vs. Esau, and Pharoah.These were separate, individualized persons.

And how can you not say that salvation is not present in this chapter?! Gander at verse 23:" What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory". God's mercy -- saving salvific mercy is tied to glory. The grace of God is in electing His people to salvation. God's purpose in election will stand (vs. 11) regardless of your protestations.There is a remnant chosen by grace (11:5). This remnant is among Jews of course, but also among Gentiles. That's why we are called a "little flock".

Ephesians 1:5 says that he predestined us in accordance to His will. The Lord has elected us ( the ones so predestined) to be saved. We are saved in time because He has chosen us in eternity past.We do not elect ourselves. We do not become elect, our election is not a merew call to service. Our election is toward savation to the praise of His glorious grace!