Dispensationalism

That is not a fair question. Instead you need ask, what is the key scripture or scripture that says the promises of Isreal ARE for the church.

Unless there is somewhere where that statement is made, by default you should assume they are still for Isreal.

BTW, I think the case could be made, as some NT passages suggest previous prophecies and promises made in context to Israel are now being fullfilled in the Church. The exact relationship is not clear cut though, as evidence by very capable and learned scholars and hard working laymen on both sides, (ARE: Calvin, Edwards, Spurgeon, Ladd, Piper, etc: ARE NOT: Ryrie, Scofield, etc: BOTH: Bock)

 

Once again, there may be no passage and who cares. What makes you think the promises of Israel ARE for the Church? What is your scriptural basis for that?

 

The church didn't replace Israel, it became Israel.

 

I happen to agree with you grasshopper, though I think you put in backwards. I would say, The church didn't replace isreal, Isreal became the church. Namely, Israel became the church when the gentiles were brought in to share in the inheritence with the Jews. And what about the Jews who don't believe. Well we learn in Romans 9 that not all Israel WAS EVER part of the true Israel, but only the remanant.

 

Picking up where Pete left off, true Jews, the real Israel, were always the ones who would be part of the promises and covenants.

Unbelieving Jews are under the wrath of God. They have no special place of blessing right now. They are apostate.

 

You have to read whole context of Romans chapter 11 talk about unbelieving Jews are already removed from the Olive tree. Now, believing Gentiles are graft into Olive Tree to join with believing Jews to share togther, SO ALL Israel are saved.

Church is Isreal. Israel is Chruch.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

This doesn't work.

Paul said that all Israel WILL be saved. It requires a future fulfillment of ethnic Jews who have been cut off. Read the whole chapter.

 

Gunter,

Firstly, Romans 11:25 tells us, believing Gentiles are grafted into,

SO.....

Romans 11:26 tells us, ALL(Both Jews and Gentiles) - Israel are saved.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

p.s. God does not cast his people(Jews) away - Romans 11:1 - ONLY believing Jews people!!

 

I am forced to mix Scripture into this discussion.

Romans 11:24
how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Who was "cut off"? Ethnic Israel.

Who will be restored? Ethnic Israel.

Come on, Amill is for those who don't deal with the text.

 

HEY!

Well, I'm not Amill but my church is. Anyway, they believe that ALL Israel is in reference to a future ingathering of ethnic Israel back onto the olive tree, just in the future and not in a future milliniem.

 

Pete, I know. It was just alot of fun typing that.

 

I wrote an article recently for my website on this. Here is an an excerpt that might help you(unless you want to be a dispensationalists, then it will shake you a bit)

"Some who reject Dispensational Theology say that we (the New Testament Church) have replaced Israel. That cannot be true according to Romans 9 and Romans 11. My contention with the Dispensationalist is not that I believe we (the New Testament Church) have replaced Israel, it that we have been added in with Israel. In other words, saved Jews are still the chosen people of God, but we are added in with them. There are not two "chosen peoples of God". There is one - this is evident from the scriptures...

The Bible is the story of the "Sons of God" - the people of God (the redeemed of all ages) - that is what the Church is. At a certain point in time, God chose to show his glory and work through the seed of one man - Abraham. His children would become a nation and represent God on earth. So from the time of Abraham to the time of Christ most of the elect (redeemed, household of God) were physical Jews. Although there were some exceptions of Gentiles being brought in like Rahab and Ruth.

After Christ, the Gentiles (non-physical Jews) were brought to belief by God in mass numbers. Now a shift took place in the household of God, it was restructured. Physical Jews had made up the majority of the household of God for many centuries, but now non-physical Jews (gentiles) would make up the majority and only a "remnant" of Jews would be saved during this period.

Does this mean that the physical Jewish people have no special place with God? Absolutely Not! They still are special to God and he will bring an entire generation of physical Jews to himself in the latter days. Another way to say this is that amongst God's spiritual people(Jews and Gentiles) there is not distinction, and no separate plan. But amongst the physical peoples of the earth (physical Jews and Gentiles) God has and does deal with them differently.

I realize at this point that this is confusing, but you must separate the physical from the spiritual. No one can deny that God has blessed the physical Jewish people and watched over them providentially throughout the centuries. I do believe the scriptures are clear that God will bring to himself an entire generation of physical Jews in the last days.

But, the fact that God will bring an entire generation of physical Jews back to himself does not justify the notion that God has two separate spiritual peoples with two separate plans. We will rule and reign together, believing Jews and Gentiles together in the millennial reign of Christ. We have a common spiritual destiny - we are one spiritual body.

Here is the final equation based on the Bible:

The Church=(Pre-Israel believers + Israel believers + Post Israel believing Jews and Gentiles)."

The full article can be found at
http://www.ifbreformation.org/Prophecy_Israel_Church.html

IFBReformer

 

IFB, as a dispensationalist, I am happy to say that there is indeed only one people of God. I am not alone on that either.

 

How about the Old and New Testaments?

Rufus

 

IFB, as a dispensationalist, I am happy to say that there is indeed only one people of God. I am not alone on that either. </font>[/QUOTE]Gunther,

1. Do you believe their are seperate plans for believing Jews and believing Gentiles?

2. Do you believe there are seperate and distinct privaledges for believing Jews and believing Gentiles whether in heaven or on earth during the millenium?

My answer to these questions is a resounding no.

3. Do you believe there are seperate privaledges adn blessings from God for non-believing Jews and non-believing Gentiles?

My answer to this question is yes.

I believe that the Bible is clear especially from Paul's account in the book of Romans that and entire generation of Jews will be brought to belief in the last days. It never says this for gentiles.

I also believe that God has and continues to bless unbelieving Jews in a special way because of Abraham. While they are here on earth, he protects them and blesses them financially and in many other ways.

Israel is the physical(not spirtual) symbol of God's power here on earth.

But the blessing is only temporary and earthly for them - for when that unbelieving Jew dies, he will like the unbelieving Gentile perish and go to hell for his unbelief.

But on a spiritual level, when a gentile accepts Christ - he is equal in all spiritual rights, privaledges and promises with the believing Jew, now in this age and for all eternity(I think this is were there are many disagreements).

That is why I believe the millenium all believers(gentile and Jew) will reign together with Christ.

IFBReformer

 

IfbReformer: //There are not two "chosen peoples of God".//

This statement is correct in any particular dispensation
that i know of. However, it is NOT true in the
set of all dispensations.
For example the Tribulation Period Dispensation
is for the very purpose of saving physical Jewish
Israeli elect saints. The Tribulation Period
happens after the rapture of the
spiritual mostly Gentile (with some beliveing
Messanaic Jews) born-again, saved, elect saints.

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
Give none offence, neither to the Jews,
nor to the Gentiles,
nor to the church of God:

 

Ed Edwards,

Let me help with this passage:

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
Give none offence, neither to the [physical unbelieving] Jews,
nor to the [physical unbelieving] Gentiles,
nor to the [physical believing Jews and Gentiles] church of God:

While I do believe during the Tribulation God will bring an entire generation of physical Jews to belief in Christ, I do not believe that is the sole purpose of the Tribulation.

Other purposes for the tribulation are for God to show his power, and bring his wrath down on disobedient world. It is to prepare the world for the millenial reign of Christ. It will also be the greatest test of the Church(believing Jews and Gentiles).

And of course as a historic premillenialist, I reject the two part second Coming theory of Dispensationalists - there are two resurections, one when Christ returns in Glory, and the other at the end of the millenium for the wicked.


Matthew 24:29-31(NIV)
"29"Immediately after the distress[tribulation] of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather [this the rapture] his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

IFBReformer

 

How about the Old and New Testaments?

Rufus </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, what about the Old and New testaments? Dispensationalists are still having trouble sorting them out.
The Old was made with a nation (Israel) regardless of whether they believed or not.
But the New was made with believers alone. And the New has replaced the Old. Thus God has no covenant with unbelievers anymore. His promises to the nation of Israel were fulfilled. Now He will fulfill His promises to believing Israel (and us Gentiles, too.--i.e.--the church). Unsaved Jews have absolutely no special priveledges under the New Covenant --i.e."there is no difference".

A believer in the better covenant,

Tim