Dispinsationalism

A dissertation on the seals and trumpets of the Apocalypse
By William Cuninghame
1st published in 1817

What was posted came from a republish in 1832

Darby a ordained deacon wrote on the rapture in 1830...

More from the same book......

 

Read "rightly dividing the people of God" by Mathison.

Mathison crushes all the points above as not "dispensational only" ....or "core" as you call it.

All these views can be found in other systems.

What is core is the two salvations found in dispensational....Israel on one hand and the Church on the other. That is dispensational at its core. I would say maybe point 6 too..There were 2 distinct resurrections...as it relates to dispensational teaching.

BTW...John MacArthur is progressive......far removed from Darby.

 

There is and only ever will be one salvation - by grace through faith in the Saviour and His atonement (before or after His incarnation).

Admitedly the Scofield brand of dispensationalism seems to have taught differently and if so, it is error.

Also, some of the elements of "dispensationalism" were held by some early church fathers several centuries before Darby.


HankD

 

Hello Hank

Considering that the very first words of both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ in their ministries [to the Jews] were:

Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 3:2

....Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 4:17

I must conclude that Israel up to that time was not a manifestation of the 'reign of the heavens', a foreshadow of it, yes, but not it's manifestation. And I must conclude that this 'reign of the heavens' was something other than what had ever been known before.

Why must the dispensationalist always make this disconnect? Why insist on two, when we have been plainly told there is only one?

having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:15,16

Again, there's the disconnect. You divide into two, what is only one:

Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.....And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:16,29

Again Hank, you make a disconnect here and see two. I believe the Spirit is showing us a wonderful continuity that always has been throughout the scriptures, and see only one. I believe this holy Jerusalem is the same heavenly Zion depicted in Ps 87, and which Paul declares to be our mother in Gal 4.

I'm glad to hear that. But there are myriads of the Israel Cult today that do indeed believe that Israel can do no wrong, and they will declare as heretics and hateful anti-semites those that don't see it their way. The scale and magnitude of this deception/brainwashing is alarming to me.

I'm convinced there's a lot more intrigue to it than that Hank . But that's a topic for another day, maybe.

FWIW, I believe that if He does deal with them as a whole again, they will be received back into the church of Christ where we are now, and from which they were broken off.

Again, I'm glad to hear of this moderation. It is the sort of dispensationalism I was raised in, in a SB church. And again, I believe that you do err in making this distinction:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

Yes, correct, and much because of the reasons given above.

There was no transfer of the promises. The promises have always belonged to the spiritual seed of Abraham. Nothing new or unexpected there.

 

You can funny sometimes.. especially when the you stuff say is so far removed from any truth you have to just making fun by making it up as you go along.

However just because you like Mathison does make him any more right than the Jehovah Witnesses and I believe he is in much error on this. BTW - I didn't say they were Dispensational ONLY.. that is your concoction. I am and have been saying 6 of the core views of the early church Pre-mil view are inline with mainstream Dispensationalism view.

The core of dispensational theology is not two salvations.. and is not dispensational.. no matter how much you might wish to chant the matra.. anymore than a person claiming the Reformed view is Hinduism. Dispensationalism does not and has not to my knowledge stated there are two salvations. All are saved the same way - by grace through faith. That does not mean that God does not have a distinct purpose in mind for those two groups who are saved. Just like God has a purpose for the Reformed believers and the Arminians.. both as saved are they not yet you have two groups.

By the way.. VERY few who hold to dispensationalism hold to or have held in past decades, Darby's view. Anyone who took just a tad bit of time to examine this issue would know that. :saint:

And MacArthur just like me.. Pre-mil with dispensational leanings

Lastly.. the early church which help the pre-mil view did in fact hold to 2 literal resurrections.

 

First.. The SECOND EDITION was published in 1817, NOT the first as noted here (note that it is the actual book)

Secondly, your quotations like the above have nothing to do with my points and are adding nothing to the conversation.

Show me where I said ANYTHING about the 144,000 being a core view of the early church pre-mil view and Dispensational teaching.

 

Hi kyredneck

You asked..........

Yes I can and I will try to keep it brief.

One meaning of “open-ended”, is that it is everlasting........
1 Chronicles 16:16-19
V.16 [Even of the covenant] which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
V.17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, [and] to Israel [for] an everlasting covenant,
V.18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;
V.19 When ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it.

The Jews are God’s people, and will always be God’s people.
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Another aspect, of being “open-ended”, is that it isn’t dependent upon the Jews to keep it.......
Psalms 89:28-37
V.28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
V.29 His seed also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
V.30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
V.31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
V.32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
V.33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
V.34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
V.35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
V.36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
V.37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Old testament saints, had eternal security just like we do.
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As for you statement, of what we are plainly told has been abolished, and done away in Christ, is talking about the Old Testament law.
The law itself hasn’t been done away with, but it’s use in sanctification has been done away.

The Old Testament saints, were sanctified by keeping the law(as best they could); And they needed the law because they did not have God’s indwelling Holy Spirit.
But, we don’t need the law for sanctification, because the Holy Spirit personally tells us what God wants us to do.............
2 Corinthians 3:18
“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
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Next I said that the Jews are still God’s people:

And you asked..........

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Romans 4:14
“For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:”

The Jews were not “of the law”, as the previous verse says..........
Romans 4:13
“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

The Jews were saved by grace, just like we are.
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Romans 9:8
“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

This verse proves my point: “....the children of the promise are counted for the seed”
God’s promise to the Jews, is still in effect.
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Galatians 3:18
“For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.”

This verse also supports my view: “..........but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.”
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Philippians 3:3
“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

In this passage, Paul is talking about the error of legalism, and pointing out that “works of the flesh”, don’t do anything for us.
But it says nothing about God’s covenant with the Jews.
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Next you quoted me..........

You asked..........

It is so hard to be brief, but I will do my best.

The seven year tribulation period that is coming to this earth, has nothing to do with the Church, but is for the Jews only........
Daniel 9:24-27
V.24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
V.25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
V.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
V.27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In Daniel 9:, we see that Daniel was studying the book of Jeremiah, and found the prophecy of 70 years:
Daniel 9:2
“In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.”

i.e That the Jews would be in captivity for 70 years.

With this observation, Daniel fell on his face before God from verses 3-19, because he knew that his people had not yet learned their lesson, and were as wicked as they were when the captivity started.

Then the LORD answers his prayer, by sending him a message.........Daniel 9:24-27
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Here the LORD is explaining to Daniel, the deeper meaning of the “70 year prophecy”, that he had read in Jeremiah.

That 70 years, is actually 70 weeks of years.
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city”

God was going to keep the Jews in bondage, for 490 years, before they would repent!
“to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity”

Also, in verse 24, God tells Daniel about the completion of the revelation of His Word to man.......
“and to seal up the vision and prophecy” (A canonized Bible)

And the Lord’s millennial reign.......
“and to anoint the most Holy”
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Then in verse 25, the LORD explains all that will happen, between the 69 & 70 week of years.......
“from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:”

By the way, “seven weeks” + “threescore and two weeks” = 69 weeks, of years.

And here is what God told Daniel would happen, between the 69th and 70th week....

Christ would be rejected by His people........
“shall Messiah be cut off”

But it would be for our benefit.........
“but not for himself:”

And the Romans will destroy Jerusalem........
“and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”
(The prince{small cap “p”}, being the anti-Christ.

And this prince, will sign a 7 year peace treaty with Israel.........
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week”

But in after 3 ½ year, he will double cross them.......
“and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
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God has put off His final 7 year chastisement of Israel, during the Church age, which will end at the rapture.

 

....heheh, that wasn't very brief TS .......

 

That's easy for you to say.

Where do you disagree with Mathison?

Yes, and the point of Mathison is that those views are not unique to Dispensationism. Its like saying Paul believed in God, therefore he too was Dispensationalist because Dispensationalist believe in God.

The above passage (where it is bold), needs to be addressed: Does this passage apply to the Jews as well as the church?

Paul then makes a list of the blessings of salvation that he is talking about in the verses that follow. Do these blessings of salvation apply to the Jew as well as the church?

I would disagree with this. I say most still hold to the old system. This is not to say that you do.

I have, and this is why I said what I said.

I agree about MacArthur, and I'll take your word that you agree with him.

Pre-mil is not new. No one says it is new. Dispensational is new. Dispensationalist try to link all pre-millers as early dispensational. This has always failed, unless you would care to share new info.

 

Right again Hank,

James

 

Good,

Now remember that this is "one of many" that was Dipensational, before Darby.

Click on the link and we will look at a few things.
Do you believe he supports ..."1. The anti-christ (a person) would both arise and reign"?

You made the list of names. I simply post words from the man that seem to say they are not Dispensational.

I don't believe you did say this, nor did I say that you said it.

William Cuninghame said....

The Dispensation which Cuninghame is speaking of, is what Dispensationalist call "the Great tribulation". Most Dispensationalist say the church is "raptured" out...but here your Dispensationalist says the 144,000 is not only on earth, but part of the church.

He also says he does not agree with..."144,000 belong to the tribes of the literal Israel"

Is this Dispensation?

maybe it is...

 

That is a good question Allen

LOL Allen,

I could have written that response for you before you even read my post.

Dispensationalists are always doing the “shuck and jive” about how dispensationalism and the traditional view of the “rapture” predate Darby by hundreds of years. I’m waiting to see the one where somebody puts it in the B.C. realm. I fully expect to see it one day too.

You can claim about anything constitutes some brand, variation, or nuance of dispensationalism—it is a murky cauldron to peer into (and granted Darby didn’t create every aspect of dispensationalism he integrated Edwards, and McDonald, and who knows what else into his theology), but just maybe a little review of the Darby and the Plymouth Brethren is in order.

The Brethren were proud to claim that they were promoting a new way of dividing the word (at least some of them—other Brethren members thought Darby was nonsensical). And, not only did the Brethren lay claim to a new interpretation of the bible, but their adversaries of the day also give them credit for coming up with a new scheme for interpretation. Like it or hate it everyone agreed it was new.

But whenever you want to root your dispensationalism its primary variety is a product of Darby.

As for the antichrist being a world ruler—that is a pure unbiblical fairy tale. Please read every mention of antichrist in the bible (you’ll only find it in 1st and 2nd John) and you will always see it refers to apostate Christians—never a mention of a world ruler. Why don’t people read the bible for themselves and not simply regurgitate false claims? Such a good question!

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

No problem.

The list applies to all who are and will be saved... and while it is speaking individually that does not negate the fact that the Jews Nationally will one day receive Him as King and Lord as scripture prophesy's. (sp?)

 

Lastday

 

Yes.. he states it is the Papacy.

Also you can find in his book "The Church of Rome, the Apostasy" (Presbyterian Board of Publications, 1841), William Cuninghame specifically identified the Papacy as the man of sin and the antichrist.

Not true in the slightest in that you 'seem' to make the assumption that all Disps say the church is removed..
SOME Dispensationalist say.. not all.. Again there is some disagreements as to when the rapture takes place.. and there are some disagreements as to who the 144,000 actually are.

The Dispensational view has 3 different views regarding when the rapture will take place. 1) Pre; 2) Mid; 3) Post ... Tribulation. This is common knowledge. Each group of Dispensationalists have have views on 'when' the Great Tribulation begins and the timing of the rapture - whether pre, mid, or post.

The fact he sees the 144,000 as the church does not negate the fact he holds to the belief in the restoration of the Jews (pg 335-37), nor that he believed the church will 'return after her secret retreat in the wilderness' (pg 290)- which is a rapture after the vials but BEFORE the last battle of Armageddon. (kinda like a mid-post regarding the rapture).

He even encourages his christian brethren thusly:
"These considerations ought surely to awaken the Christian to pray more earnestly for his country, and to quicken his diligence, that he may individually be accounted worthy to ESCAPE the approaching wrath, and to stand before the Son of Man..." (pg 349)

Emphasis above is mine

Yes

 

First off.. a post-tribulational resurrection is also known to be dispensational teaching.. though it is admittedly a smaller crowd. (a view I'm not necessarily opposed to.

Second.. I know that Ephesians 1 is to the saints individually, it does not negate the fact that Israel as a nation will be restored and come back to God in a saving way. It still applies. Just because we are all saved the same way does not mean that God does not have a distinction of purpose for the Israel in relation to the Church. As I said previously to James.. it is much like Cals and Arms.. If both are saved.. God has a distinction of purpose for each group (otherwise there wouldn't be the two) yet it is not placing one group OVER another.. but both are apart of the family of God.

Hehehe.. me and Ed Edwards disagreed on MANY things though we did have many agreements on other things.

Lastly - Look.. I 'could' do this all day long.. picking your posts apart and explaining each and every verse you give with what I studied to find scripture saying. However to address politely I will not engage your above post for 3 reasons:
1. I don't actually have that kind of time and
2. It is not a discussion I have found to be something edifying on/in these types of discussions and they RARELY turn out well, (mostly it is a dictation of what one is demanding the other agree to and if not, it deteriorates into smart remarks, name calling, and then downhill from there...)
3) Although I am not looking to discuss one view over another, I am trying to address some of the misconceptions in the thread about who originated the view of Dispensationalism.. While Darby and Scofield are the poster boys for it, who helps to popularize it.. they didn't invent it.

Nothing against you.. but I can post and say many of the same types of things (and have done so over the years on here) to you regarding my view that you don't agree with. Yet I did note that you seem to assume that dispensationalism is only a pre-trib view when in fact, like I was saying to James, it encompasses much more than that - both pre, mid, and post rapture views.

 

Allan, I have a lot to say about this post. But just a short one now.

What are you saying "ESCAPE the approaching wrath, and to stand before the Son of Man..." (pg 349)"... is? The rapture?

 

Why don't you read what he says about it

 

oh I did Allan,

Why do you point this out?? Do you feel this helps your views?

For that matter, why did you point out.."...secret retreat in the wilderness"

Is this the rapture?

 

These sites....

These sites say YES...this is the rapture and they say this is proof that the rapture was talked about before Darby.

Do you agree?