1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Dispinsationalist vs. Preterist

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Grasshopper, Jun 28, 2008.

Top Posters
Page 3 of 3
  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,385
    Likes Received:
    23


    Once again, I ask for scripture for your definition and receive none.



    If there are any dispies reading this, is this what you believe as well?



    What do you mean 1st? There was no promise of a 1st and 2nd or 3rd New Covenant.



    How about we see what inspired NT writers say the house of David meant:

    Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.
    Act 15:15 And the words of the Prophets agree to this; as it is written,
    Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,
    Act 15:17 so those men who are left might seek after the Lord, and all the nations on whom My name has been called, says the Lord, who does all these things."

    The context which James quotes this verse is the adding of Gentiles to the Church. James settles the argument by using these OT passages concerning the tabernacle of David to say this is what it meant.



    No prerequisite for establishing the Kingdom. God never said if you Pharisees believe in me then I will establish my Kingdom.


    Where does it say such a thing? Especially your view of a physical 1000 year Kingdom.

    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.




    You mean verse 26. It means He was crucified.


    I give up on trying to get a coherent view from you on the New H&E of Is. Peter and Rev.


    Isa 26:19 Your dead ones shall live, together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is as the dew of lights, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


    You’re right, and when did this occur? Read the NT:

    Eph 5:14 Therefore he says, "Awake, sleeping ones! And arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light."

    It is a spiritual awakening.



    :laugh: :laugh:

    Do you see God calling Israel "sons of the sorceress?" That's Israel bowing down to A/C!

    :laugh: :laugh:



    So scripture teaches 2 separate New Heavens and Earth? Again, all dispies reading this do you agree????
     
    #41 Grasshopper, Jul 6, 2008
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,385
    Likes Received:
    23
    I guess I’ll answer the same question again:

    Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out into a place which he was afterward going to receive for an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he went.
    Heb 11:9 By faith he lived in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs of the same promise with him.

    Also you might want to do a word study for the word “forever” as used in the OT.


    I guess I’ll answer this question again as well:

    Heb 11:13 These all died by way of faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off. And they were persuaded of them and embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    If you wish to believe Gentiles receive heaven as our reward and Jews receive a plot of land then more power to you.
    You built much of your MK theology on memorial sacrifices of Eze.40-48 when you were shown you were wrong you continued to insist otherwise. Finally after hearing another preterist show the same error you flip-flopped. Now you go on as if that was just a minor insignificant point. Not only that but then you give me this arrogant statement:

    “Can't you think about it before you try to spiritualize or literalize the text inappropriately for me to correct for you?”

    So perhaps you could not lecture me on my need for correction until I actually flip flop on a major pillar of my eschatology.



    Hey, if you want to have a discussion on “audience relevance” I’m all for it. Perhaps we can start with I Thessalonians 4.
    1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also have suffered these things by your own countrymen, even as they also by the Jews;
    1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, also driving us out and they do not please God and being contrary to all men,

    Seems if the modern Israel is the same Israel of the Old and New Testaments this would still apply. Funny, I always hear John Hagee and such telling us all the good things that apply to modern Israel but never things like this. Wonder why? These are still applicable if dispies are right:

    Rev 2:9 I know your works and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

    Talk about anti-Semetic.

     
    #42 Grasshopper, Jul 6, 2008
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dispy: //What do YOU make of 9:25? "Cut off but not for Himself?"//

    Grasshopper: //You mean verse 26. It means He was crucified.//

    Amen, Brother Grasshopper. Messiah the Prince was crucified after the 7 Weeks, after the 62 weeks, that is after 69 of the 70 weeks were transpired.

    Dan 9:25-26 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Knowe therefore and vnderstande, that from the going foorth of the commandement to bring againe the people, and to builde Ierusalem, vnto Messiah the prince, shall be seuen weekes and threescore and two weekes, and the streete shalbe built againe, and the wall euen in a troublous time.
    26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be slaine, and shall haue nothing,, and the people of the prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie and the Sanctuarie, and the end thereof shalbe with a flood: and vnto the end of the battell it shalbe destroyed by desolations.
    27 And he shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

    // ... the people of the prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie and the Sanctuarie ... //

    To whom does the first 'he' in Dan 25-27 refer? The prince above who destroys Jerusalem and the Temple therein? IMHO: NO WAY! the prince who destroys is NOT the same as Messiah the Prince. So the only difference here between the a-mill preterist and the pre-mill futurist positions is the resolution of HE in Daniel 9:27. What about the second 'he' in Daniel 9:27? Does it refer to the Christ or the Antichrist? -- you better get it right; better be worshiping the Christ and not the Antichraist. Does the Christ commit the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) or does the Antichrsit commit the AoD? Answer: the False Messiah; not the real Messiah. The Real Messiah is Yeshusa (Hebrew) or Iesus (KJV1611 Edition) or Jesus in the MVs.

    Needless to say there are enough messy understandings of 'and' (or '&') to allow some to believe a-mill preterist OR pre-mill futurist. And some people don't know the first thing about 'last' nor the last thing about 'first' -- that allows for other understandings of scripture like post-tribualtion only rapture, followed by a literal second coming but a spiritual Millennial Reign of Christ (a-mill) after the end of the world. The world will fall apart when the Lord touches down on the earth - this will happen either in 70AD (preterist) or our future (futurist). If a person could figure out what Ephesians means, then Revelation would a snap :)


    So I think Skypair is way closer to what the Bible says.
     
    #43 Ed Edwards, Jul 6, 2008
  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    So narrow down your focus. I can't answer a question I don't understand.

    Those who should have received it first rejected it, Mt 20:16. Again, these are basic but foundational truths. You're not just feigning ignorance of them, are you?

    First let me point out that you are referencing the "TABERNACLE of David," not the "house of David." The TABERNACLE of David" would be the place of religious worship in the OT manner as we see in Ezek 40-48.

    Second, Acts 15:16 is a quote from Amos 9:11 and the context there clearly refers to the literal MK when "the plowman will overcome the reaper" etc. (9:12-18).

    Thirdly, "those men who are left" refers post-Armageddon to the MK, Zech 14:16. Again ABSOLUTELY NO RESEMBLANCE to post-70 AD.

    Again, in your eminent, godly wisdom there's no such prerequisite, right? And we see how far your "eminent wisdom" has gotten you. :laugh:

    Rev 20:4-8. Here's an exercise for you -- interpret these words:

    1) Where does Rev 20:4-9 take place?

    2) What does "live" mean in these verses? "...and I saw the souls of them ... and they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years ... but the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years was finished;... and I saw the dead small and great stand before God ... and [they] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

    If you just want to get it straight, there is an OT New H&E and a NT New H&E. Why? Because this H&E must pass away before "one jot or tittle will in no wise pass from the law." (Mt 5:18) But before it passes away, all must be fulfilled -- including the reign of Messiah, David's Son, and the receiving of the new covenant and the promises by Israel and particularly by the OT saints. Look at Job, Job 19:25. He expects to stand on the earth again with his Redeemer. Isaiah, whom yyou cite in Isa 26:19-21 -- same thing after the great tribulation, 26:20-21.

    For you, that would be true. For those whom Isaiah called into their "bedchambers" --- No.

    Several times Paul exhorts believers to live the "resurrection life" that, indeed, the OT saints will when they are raised from their graves. 1Cor 15:34 is another one. And the 'resurrection life' is lived in a PHYSICAL body that is quickened by the Spirit. In fact, Paul says he 'dies daily' (15:31) in order to hopefully 'know the power of His resurrection' and 'attain to the resurrection of the dead,' Phil 3:10-11. That is, to attain bodily to the resemblance of an OT saint living in the MK.

    skypair
     
    #44 skypair, Jul 7, 2008
  5. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    "As a stranger," gh. And there is not even a claim that he possessed ALL the land which could likely only be done by him AND his descendants, right?

    {quote]Also you might want to do a word study for the word “forever” as used in the OT.[/quote] I know where you are coming from and like EVERY word, the meaning hinges largely on CONTEXT.

     
    #45 skypair, Jul 7, 2008
  6. lbaker

    lbaker New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2006
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    0
    Y'all can add me to the Preterist list. I'm a Partial Preterist anyway.
     
    #46 lbaker, Jul 7, 2008
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,385
    Likes Received:
    23
    skypair,

    It's been fun. Once a thread hits 4 or 5 pages usually everything has been said on both sides and we just get frustrated going around in circles. So I'll bow out at this time but I'm sure we'll lock horns again on this subject soon. For you and those who might still be reading this here are some things you might find helpful:

    Here is a site that has an excellent series on the Throne of David along with other excellent teaching on his audio sermon page:
    http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/


    Here are a couple of atricles on the New Covenant and the New Heavens and New Earth.

    http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=61

    http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Itemid=61
     
    #47 Grasshopper, Jul 7, 2008
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Classic lines from the inimitable Skypair.He's clueless that these lines apply perfectly to himself.
     
    #48 Rippon, Jul 7, 2008
  9. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Grasshopper,

    Well, at least from those articles I see how your logic works. If you think a prophecy or covenant has been fulfilled already, you just assume that the literal events that were to accompany it have been fulfilled as well. And that misrepresentation of the scripture worked pretty well while Israel was swallowed up by the nations.

    But like most lies, preterism's usefulness is in days gone by. Israel's reappearance is only the beginning of God's proof that Israel didn't merge into the church by being either replaced or included (I am surprised that you, unlike other preterists I have known, did not try to tell me what tribe of Israel you hale from! :laugh: ).

    Well, I agree with your last post. We do seem to live in different worlds that have no connection the one with the other. If "heaven and earth" have "passed," I must have missed 2Pet 3:10 and I can't even fathom what world -- I suppose it would have to be the eternal kingdom of Rev 21-22 -- that you think YOU are living in.

    skypair
     
    #49 skypair, Jul 8, 2008
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Preterist ... "that you think YOU are living in?"

    the second comeing was spiritual - AD 35
    the millinnial kingdom of the Messiah was spiritual AD 36-1036
    the release of Satan was spiritual AD 1037
    The great white throne judgment of all men (spiritual) was AD 1038.

    We are in eternal heaven or eternal hell. I watched the TV news last night; I read this morning's newspaper: "that you think YOU are living in?" -- eternal hell.
     
    #50 Ed Edwards, Jul 10, 2008
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    He (or she) who posts last

    WINS :thumbs:
    ​
     
    #51 Ed Edwards, Jul 13, 2008
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    I win! :laugh:
     
    #52 Amy.G, Jul 13, 2008
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Works for me :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
     
    #53 Ed Edwards, Jul 13, 2008
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 3
Loading...