Diversity of Opinion

I notice it seems a lot of the anti-CCM'ers have gone to the Baptist only sections. It seems perhaps there are more conservatives over there who will agree with them.

It seems the discussions here died down sharply in the last few days what that "Old Fashioned hymns" thread came up where touchet1611 was selling his stuff, and then people finally caught a glimpse of what he believes. But that ideology is actually where much of the antiCCM sentiment originally came from; even though much of it has been buried.

 

jmo, but i thought we as Christians are suppose to set ourself aside from the world and most ccm looks like the world, sounds like the world and acts like the world, so how is that setting ourself or (theirself) aside from the world??

 

Call me uneducated but I had to google CCM, I take it that it is Modern Christian Music. I agree that all bands that say they are Christian make me wonder but most of them come from the heart and if it gets the world to hear God's word then go for it

I love Classic Hymns and have yet to find a good one where they sing them as they were ment to be and not 'Artistically" I like the modern music as well

If we are to set ourselves apart from the world then why do you sell Mary Kay. Isn't making yourself pleasing to the eye worldly? Not that I am one to talk, I like my makeup as well :smilewinkgrin:

By the way, I like your picture, just trying to make a point :flower:

I am just saying, if it gets the word out and it is praising God, then go for it. Again, some of the bands just use the name Christian Music to get airplay. Must discern the good from the bad

 

You go girl!! :thumbs:

 

first question fault: amy grant aint a christian.
second question fault: petra's album "Petra Means Rock" came out in '89 while KISS's album Revenge with the song "Unholy" came out in '92.

there are a few more. i need to do a little research.

but dont you find it funny that they dont post what songs the said christian groups are? they dont mention what songs the lyrics are from. BUT they post what album AND what SONG from the secular artists...

hmm. seems kind of odd.
dont ya just love swiss cheese?

 

I could see Amy Grant being described as somewhat backslidden, you could say, but that is no reason to deny she's a Christian altogether. But since she is still acceptaed or thought of as Christian and associated with CCM, saying she;s not would not challenge Watkins' argument, but if anything further support it.

 

Hey Eric - I wasn't selling a thing - those OF hymns are on line for free - download them and enjoy the good ole stuff when words were more important than music. I have this to be a typical of folks who spend their lifetime whacking other websites cuz they are only so brave with their finger tips hiding behind a computer screen.

The music sermon site - now that is where I would like to hear some discussions - I don't mean opinions, I mean scriptures - and seeing as how most folks don't know Greek, it would have to be in English, but seeing as how most folks today don't have one final authority other than their own educated opinion after reading all the versions, various greeks, and listening to others form their opinion for them, I doubt the discussions would be worth any time.

Anyway - what I believe certainly should have no affect on whether or not you would enjoy those old hymns or not. They are simply played - they can be sung along with you if you so choose - or you can skip them.

But don't lie and tell folks I am selling anything - cuz I am not! Just because all the folks out there have come to think that EVERYTHING has to be sold, truth is NEVER to be sold - so, that is another reason why I stick with KJV. It has no copyright as do ALL the others.

By the way, if you are going to comeback with a KJV DOES have a copyright, it is only those who have study notes in them - the text is NOT copyrighted.

 

Sorry; you weren't selling them.
Forgot.
Hawking them, pitching them; whatever.
It was the unbiblical racial thrology behind your doctrine that was more of concern to me.
(trying to make one of the sons of Noah the chosen race, musically or otherwise is certeinly a false gospel. But I credit you for being consistent in this teaching, because almost all the other anti-CCM'ers are in total denial of it. SFIC, Linda, are you two still here? ol' Aaron, DHK, bapmom, Dcorbett, etc?)

(It looks like Bible John of cerm who has been going after you has been looking for debates here. I wish he would read his PM and come over here; as he doesn't even seem to know that you've shown up here).

 

I have a friend I'm working on getting back in church. He's a lawyer. He wears suits every day. He listens to classical music.

He's the most "worldly" person I know, yet he fits in to a church environment perfectly.

God looks on the heart.

Also, you might as well be presented with this challenge now, because it is the achille's heel of your assertions:

Please present me with a scripture that condemns a genre of music.

 

JD, no one has called anyone judgemental or stupid or legalists for being traditional in their music.

In fact, I find that we've been a lot more accepting of traditionalists views than they are of ours.

The only time any traditionalist has been criticized is because of the way he presents his opinion, not because of his opinion.

I haven't really ever talked to you, but I do know that as long as you present yourself politely, and are respectful to others, you will be treated politely and respectfully.

On the other hand, if you you come out with guns a'blazin' like Aaron and Enda, you're probably going to get the same.

The rules really haven't changed much from what your mother told you when you were little: be nice to people and people will be nice to you.

Now Playing: Charlie Waller and the Country Gentlemen - "The Best of Charlie Waller and the Country Gentlemen"

 

We've debated and debunked that website's propaganda many times.

A couple of problems with the logic of that website.

The first and most obvious is that they never bother to explain what's wrong with Christian rock or contemporary mainstream music, they just pick a couple of quotes out of context and say, "See??? We told you so!"

They never actually examine the music or the lyrics, they simply make ad hominem attacks against artists, usually based on dubious information.

The second is that they say we're not to listen to the music of these people because they're unsaved, but we're expected to take their opinions on music as Gospel.

The third is that they refuse to address the tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of artists who don't live sinful lifestyles, who don't sing about sinful things, who aren't Satanists, who don't die young, etc.

Now Playing: Tom Petty - "Wildflowers"

 

OK. From question #1:

The question condemns this song as "New Age". Can you please tell me exactly what it is about the quoted lyrics that are objectionable?

From question #2:

The good, honest folks at av1611.com quote these lyrics and ask, "KISS or Petra"? Obviously, it's KISS, and I'm sure that they know that we know this.

However, they go on to try to demonize Petra because they happen to have a song in common with KISS. The lyrics that they quote in trying to show us what an evil, Satanic band Petra is are:

Now, let's be honest. This is just a stupid song. It's shallow, it's dumb, it doesn't even have a good beat or melody to it.

But what's wrong with it?

Again, let's be honest and put the fact on the table that both bands, KISS and Petra did the song. But, instead of trying to demonize Petra by associating the song with KISS, why can't the website be honest enough to admit that Petra did the song fifteen years before KISS did it, and had no control or say in what KISS did with the song?

From question #3:

Once again, we see them engaging in guilt by association, rather than taking the time to, God forbid, examine the song or the music, itself.

How does the fact that the song is written by a Buddhist make the song bad, or the group, Point of Grace, a bad group?

Question four, I'll grant is a little hard to explain a Christian group doing, but at least av1611 might have taken the time to examine the song on it's own merits, rather than just playing the guilt by association game.

From question #5:

What's wrong with this song? It happens to be the one REZ song I can stand to listen to. Other than the fact that it was sung originally by someone you don't like, what's wrong with the song?

Question #6, again, granted, an odd song for a Christian band to be doing, but if we're going to be honest, then the does deserve a little more thoughtful consideration than simply, "Black Sabbath sang it. Black Sabbath is bad. Deliverance sings it. Therefore, Deliverance is bad."

Question #7:

Again, they're trying to do the guilt by association thing, when the truth is, the 77's didn't get the song from Led Zeppelin, but both bands got the song from Gospel songwriter, Thomas A. Dorsey.

What's wrong with the song and what's wrong with the 77's for covering the song?

Question #8:

This one I truly don't get.

I would think that a song affirming Christ would be acceptable.

The pattern remains the same: group "a" performs a song. Group a is bad. Group "b" covers song. Therefore, group "b" is bad.

Once again, av1611 didn't do their homework.

While the Doobie Brothers did cover the song first, it wasn't their song.

They actually lifted it from the Byrds, who's leader, Gram Parsons, was an outspoken Christian.

Do you get the point, or should I go on?

Now Playing: Jimmy Buffett - "Hoot: Original Soundtrack"

 

I still remember the one where they quoted DC TALK as saying that their tour with Carman "was all about the money", but when investigated, it turned out that the quoted came from a magazine interview that took place two years before that tour and had nothing to do with the tour, but was referring to the trouble that they were having being accepted to the mainstream marketplace.

Now Playing: Bill Kirchen - "Hot Rod Lincoln: Live"

 

Amy Grant isn't a Christian. But, as you pointed out, that still doesn't make the song bad.

Now Playing: Jack Johnson - "Brushfire Fairytales"

 

Has she renounced Christ or something?
You're not saying she's not a Christ just because she fell into divorce and remarriage, are you?

 

How can we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?

Now Playing: Oscar Petersen Trio: "A Night on the Town"

 

Still, alot of Christians fall into sin including divorce.
Man, not even most anti-CCM'ers are that hard on her.

 

I'm ready to go one further. The writer(s) of av1611.org are guilty of blasphemy. Blasphemy, as Jesus explained to us in Matthew 12:22-37, is assigning an act of God to the realm of Satan.

AV1611.org routinely states that God cannot be glorified through any CCM artist (including such "new, cutting-edge" and "rocking" individuals such as Steve Green and Twila Paris. They claim (many times) that all CCM artists are performing through Satan's power.

I believe Matthew 12:22-37 addresses their actions fairly clearly.

On three occasions, I have contacted the site's writers about documented, obvious factual errors they made. The response I received (on two of the three occasions) was "Satan has blinded you to the real problem--you embrace his methods and his servants and claim that God uses it." (the other time I received no response)

I'd be really scared to pronounce anyone that sings any music I deem "CCM" as a servant of Satan. Do you really want to paint that broadly, and run the risk of blasphemous statements?

Thankfully, most folks I talk to, even if they are strongly traditional in their approach, don't take it to that extreme. For that I am grateful.

Opening another can of worms, and some random cloudings of the already muddy water:
-can anyone actually define "CCM?" That's the problem...what one person says is "CCM" (whatever that means) another will say, "nope, that's a hymn/traditional."
-do you allow a line to be drawn between music (Christian or no) for entertainment's sake (don't think in terms of crass, vulgar, or evil...even "Let Me Call You Sweetheart" fits in terms of entertaining songs), and songs appropriate for worship?
-If a song is not explicitly Christian, does that make it evil? (Think outside the box...is "She'll be coming around the Mountain" an evil song? It ain't Christian...)
-Is "Before the throne of God Above" a hymn? Why or why not?
-What makes David Crowder's arrangement of "Come Thou Fount" less edifying than a piano/organ arrangement? At least 75% of the time, we include a hymn in our Wed. evening worship time. How can you know you're "playing it wrong?"
-Define a hymn. What makes a "hymn" more edifying than a "chorus?" (careful about imposing your own meaning of "hymn" into the "Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" phrase...use good hermeneutics).
-At what point do the "unredeemed instruments" (ostensibly, the electric guitar, drums, maybe the bass, and maybe acoustic guitars, and maybe less traditional keyboard sounds) cause a song to go from "good" to "evil?"
-Let's say that I use modern worship music at my church (I do, along with old music, ancient music, and original stuff). If I came to your church, and respected your preferences (e.g., if you're a traditional church I come in and approach worship in a traditional manner) and led worship...could God use me? Or would I be an unusable vessel?

I'll be interested to see the replies.

Once again...I sincerely hope that God is blessing the ministries of all of you here, regardless of your approach to music.

RBell

 

You're lucky he responded at all. Did you see his warning (in huge point size, like mudh of the rest of the site) "We do NOT debate, anything other than scriptures condeming this trash will be canned", etc.

To answer your hypothetical questions, they have a cleverly devised cycle (http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html#cycle) of fallacies, where if one thing by itself does not really make it wrong, they swing over to something else. Basically, it is a mix of associations (what the sound is associated with, regardless of what exactly makes it that way. That is Pipedude's argument), then science and behaviorism claims (which fundamentalists are normally against, but in this issue they are deperate enought to use them as proof, and the're usually misinterpreted), to just plain "God doesn't like it" --the traditional sound (of Japheth, as touchet1611 will add) is what God has given us.

 

bump......