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Do Baptists go all the way back to the apostles?

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by FundamentalBaptist02, Sep 18, 2006.

  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    No, not saying anything just pointing out that there were other writings that were part of the Bible and then not part of the Bible.
    Nothing to talk about.
     
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Were they not called hidden books because they were not part of the Bible?
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I don't care to get into something I don't know a whole lot about. If you want to talk Scripture that God's Spirit witnesses with my Spirit that I am a child of God and go back to the days of Christ then I will talk but not something I not in to. There were autographs that they only had bits and peices of that they had to add to according to what history I have read.
     
  4. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I think the books referred to above are the Apochrypa (which was inclueded in the inital printings of the AV1611) not the Pseudepigrapha.

    The Pseudepigrapha are wht the "New Agers" usually refer to when they talk about "the hidden books."
     
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    The Bible itself requires a lot of Faith that God completely authorized it. (excluding the mistakes in translation that have been made along the way), of which we accept, but then again "our God" does not make mistakes. Also, we accept and believe that all the autographs that were what God wanted in the Bible and no mistakes were made there. It was a "type of committe" that included and excluded the autographs or writings of which we believe that God directed the to do so. Was God in the translations, all of them?

    Still requires a lot of faith don't you think?
     
    #65 Brother Bob, Oct 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2006
  6. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    The word apocrypha has the meaning "those having been hidden away" ...and addresses writings that had uncertain authenticity and authorship.

    It was Jerome that came up with the word for these writings. Augustine defined the word as "obscurity of origin," meaning...any book of unknown authorship or questionable authenticity is considered as apocrypha. Jerome said that all books outside the Hebrew canon were apocryphal. Jerome set the apocryphal aside from the books of the Bible. This is why we have a name for these writings, other wise it would all just be the Bible.

    You are right about the new agers. It is my own feeling that they dropped the apocrypha name and used its meaning "hidden books" is if they had found something new that was over looked or "hidden" in the past by the RCC. This is yet another reason history must be studied.
     
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Apochrypa refers to inter-testamental writings or OT add ons. Pseudepigrapha refers to supposed add ons to the NT. At least that's how I remember the differences form school.
     
  8. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    It also depends on who you are talking to.

    The modern protestant apocrypha is the Catholic deuterocanon which is the intertestamental OT writings you refer to which is found in the 1611 KJV as noted earlier.

    The list is:
    1 Esdra, 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Rest of Esther (Esther 10:4-16:24), Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach), Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy, Song of the Three Children (Daniel 3:24-30), Story of Susanna (Daniel 13), The Idol Bel and the Dragon (Daniel 14), Prayer of Manasses, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees.

    The Catholic apocrypha includes books found in the EOC canon but not the Catholic canon: 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras and/or 2 Esdras and Psalm 151.

    The EOC probably considers OT books accepted as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox as apocryphal, such as Jubilees, Enoch, and the Rest of the Words of Baruch. Of note is the Book of Enoch which is quoted by name in Jude.


    Pseudepigrapha means "false inscription" and refers to books that have wrongly attributed authorship. For instance, the book of Enoch was definitely not written by the Enoch of the OT who it is attributed to since it was written several thousands of years after his life. There are OT pseudepigrapha and NT pseudepigrapha.


    However, modern Protestants and Catholics have also used the word pseudepigrapha to refer to books that are outside of both the Protestant canon and the Catholic deuterocanon. This includes both NT and OT books. Some refer to pseudepigrapha more specifically like Squire to refer to non-canonical non-deuterocanonical NT aged books which all of the above Christian groups would consider to be apocryphal.

    There is an extensive list of these books that can be found for the most part in the apocrypha section of the site Early Christian Writings.
     
    #68 Gold Dragon, Oct 6, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2006
  9. USMC71

    USMC71 New Member

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    Unto him be glory in the church of Jesus Christ througout all ages, world without end, Amen. Ephesians 3:21

    The glory of Christ was to exist in all of the ages in the church. The church was , therefore, bound to exist in all of the ages. Even the redeemed in Heaven are described in the scriptures as a church.

    In every age sinc Jesus and the Apostles, there have been companies of believers, churches, who have substantially held to the principles of the New Testament as now proclaimes by Baptists.

    Jesus himself, in a reply to an inquiry put to him by the Pharisees (Luke 17:20-24) compares his kingdom to the lightning, darting its rays in the most sovereign and uncontrollable manner from one extremity of the heavens to the other.

    Whereever God has his elect, there in his own proper time, he sends the Gospel to save them, and churches after his model are organized.

    If the Baptist Church is not from the side of Christ and the Apostles, then tell me, What church has Jesus been receiving glory in for the past 2,000 years?
     
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Never heard a Baptist say that. hmmm...
     
  11. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    There's a first for everything. ;)
     
  12. Lions84

    Lions84 New Member

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    Yes we do Just read JR Carrolls the Trail of Blood and study the Triple J theory Baptist have been around since John the Baptist. :thumbsup:
     
  13. USMC71

    USMC71 New Member

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    Let's see, within these that you have mentioned we have,

    One man who rules over the Catholic churches, who claims that he speaks "Ex-Cathedra", who claims to be the "Vicar of Christ".
    We have salvation by works, by baptism.
    We have baby baptizers
    We have those who believe Jesus is crucified over again at the Mass.
    We have those who believe salvation from OT Law and not grace.
    Those who believe the Blood of Jesus is not sufficient to keep us saved.
    Those who ordain women and homosexuals

    This is just to name a few.
    No glory for Jesus there.
     
  14. USMC71

    USMC71 New Member

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    That is because a true Baptist would not say that, only an evangelical who is ecumenical.
     
  15. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I am aware of the doctrinal differences between the groups above. While some of your characterizations are correct, many are not.

    Yes, catholics believe the pope can speak ex-cathedra. It is generally recognized by Catholic historians that the last such ex-cathedra statement was in 1950 by Pope Pious XII about the assumption of Mary. Before that, the last one was in 1854 by Pope Pious IX about the immaculate conception of Mary. Both of which are statements that I disagree with because of my belief in Sola Scriptura.

    Yes. Many critics of Catholicism assume that this title has some suggestion of authority over Christ. But the intent of the title is to suggest that the authority was given by Christ,

    Of course, I disagree with all who use this verse to defend successionist theologies, whether they are apostolic or baptistic successionism since I do not believe this verse is talking about successionism at all. Sola Scriptura allows for these types of disagreements.


    Those who believe in baptismal regeneration do not believe in a salvation by works. Groups that believe in baptismal regeneration include the Catholic Church, EOC, Anglicans as well as sola fide groups like Lutherans, Reformed, Presbyterians, Methodists, Church of Christ and many others.

    While I practice symbolic baptism in the North American baptist tradition, the strong relationship between salvation and baptism is made evident by the following verses to suggest something more than mere symbolism.

    There are many interpretations for these verses that support the theology of symbolic baptism as well as other verses that suggest that theology. But I believe there is enough ambiguity in the bible about baptismal regeneration to allow it to be a topic that I can remain undecided about.

    And even for Catholics for whom baptism and salvation are most strongly connected and consider baptism to be a "work", their understanding of salvation still remains a salvation by faith in underserved grace by Christ and not something we earn.

    I will deal with the rest of your statements in another post.
     
    #76 Gold Dragon, Oct 9, 2006
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  16. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    The groups who subscribe to paedobaptism, include Catholics, EOC, OOC, Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Presbyterians and Methodists. These churches all recognize some of the inherent problems of paedobaptism which is why they often have things like Confirmation when children reach a certain age.

    There are three passages in the bible that suggest entire families were baptised together in Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:31-33 and 1 Cor 1:16-17. While that doesn't necessarily mean those under an "age of accountability" or infants were involved, it does leave some ambiguity in the age of baptism.

    Our baptist church requires one to be over 16.

     
  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    We seem to have gotten a bit far afield on this thread. Could we please return to the OP?
     
  18. USMC71

    USMC71 New Member

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    I am fully aware of the teacings of the Catholic Church, for is was one for 25 years. One that studied the Catechism from front to back. Obviously, that is why I left.

    They and many others that you mention teach and preach a different Jesus, in Paul's words, they are accursed.

    Yes, the doctrine of the Baptists today, is the same as what Jesus and the Apostles taught. What does that mean? We be it.
     
    #79 USMC71, Oct 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2006
  19. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    I apologize for this.

    USMC71, if you wish to discuss this further, we can move our conversation to another forum. Thanks.
     
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