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Do Baptists have a shallow view of Corporate Worship?

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Onlybygrace, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes <img src=/jrhodes.jpg>

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    I'll grant you this happens in many places, but by focusing on the ones getting it wrong instead of the ones that get it right, your comment just sounds bitter to me.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Wasn't this whole thread based on getting it wrong and identifying that? I am not bitter in the least. I think we have made a joke out of worship and my supposed bitterness is the least concern.
     
  3. JamieinNH

    JamieinNH New Member

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    Thanks for defining that. When I googled it, it came up with a bunch of things that didn't seem to define it well.

    Are you serious or just making a jab at me?

    Have you not ever felt the spirit of the Lord in a service? Have you felt that your mind, body and spirit were in perfect harmony? Have you ever wanted to just raise your hands up to God and give him praise?

    That's the feel that was there.. While singing, it just became very apparent that God WAS present and that feeling was an awesome one.. Because of that, the "schedule" was set aside and Worshiping God took over. That day, there was no need for a sermon, no need to stop and ask God to join us, no need for anything but to Worship God.

    As far as a Bible reference, Pentecost comes to mind and how do you distinguish it from anything else? Well that one can be tougher to answer, but for me, when I am worshiping God and I can feel his presence and know he is within me.


     
  4. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    As a song leader, I believe that the music should prepare the people for worship and for the message the Lord has given the pastor or whoever is preaching. The music should complement the message--not replace it.

    While the preaching of the word is sufficient by itself to bring the lost to Christ and to prepare the saved for a life of service, I also believe that music can sooth a troubled heart and soften even the hardest.

    An example: One day I was in a church service as a teen, and I was very angry about something. I can't remember what it was (that was about 45 years ago), but I had determined that I was not going to sing. The song leader was so enthusiastic and loved what he was doing so much that before long he had me joining in and singing with the same enthusiasm, and I quickly forgot my anger. So music can be very helpful in preparing the people by getting them in the correct attitude for worship.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Dead serious.

    I don't know. What does that feel like? Biblically, how would we know what that is?

    Again, I don't know what that means.

    Yes.

    How was it apparent? What was the "feel"?

    There's never a need for anything else.

    When I read of Pentecost in the Bible. I see nothing about feeling.

    But again, at the risk of belaboring this, what does that mean? How do you "feel his presence"? Is that like humidity? I feel the presence of humidity. Or a cool breeze on a hot day? I can feel that too. Or the excitement of winning a ball game? I have been there. I know God is within me based on his word and his work in my life. It has nothing to do with feeling.

    The point is that there is nothing in the Bible that I know of that associates worship with "feeling" the presence of the Lord. There is no sign given for how we discern the feeling of worship vs. the feeling of a love song, or the feeling of worship vs. the feeling of chocolate milk and cookies.

    I think this is a very unsound way to judge worship.

    We just worship by whether or not the truth of God is communicated clearly and lives are brought into conformity with his truth.

    Too many people are judging worship by emotions ... undefined emotions like "I felt it" and I see no biblical basis for that.
     
  6. Lilachka523

    Lilachka523 New Member

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    what do you mean exactly by 'corporate' worship? :/
     
  7. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes <img src=/jrhodes.jpg>

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    Corporate worship: The Body of Christ coming together to worship Him together. Could be at church, but isn't necessarily. Most people would assume that corporate worship (or cooperative worship if you prefer) happens at church during the "worship service."
     
  8. Victorious

    Victorious Member

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    Excellent! Man, after being on another "Christian" site and forum, I can really say, GOD BLESS BAPTISTS! :applause:
     
  9. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Joseph M Smith said...

    And this Baptist says...


    AMEN!!!!


    :godisgood:
     
  10. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Pastor Larry...

    You dont know what is is?

    All I can say is that when you experience it, you will then know. Its wonderful, its beautiful, its richly rewarding. Its God manifesting Himself in a tangible way in and through His people.

    Its in the scriptures.

    The scriptures that speak of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the reality of His presence.

    Because we are people who know God. We know Him and have experienced Him. We can recognize the true from the counterfeit because we know God...experientially...so well, and also because we know the scriptures.


    :godisgood:
     
  11. Onlybygrace

    Onlybygrace New Member

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    “But just 'cause it CAN be worship doesn't automatically mean that it WILL be worship.” SBC preacher

    Agreed…worship is not what we do or how we do it as much as it is the heart attitude with which we do it. However, having said that we need to be careful about the precedents we set because as you said:

    Praying CAN be worship.
    Singing CAN be worship.
    Reading Scripture CAN be worship.
    Preaching CAN be worship.
    Giving tithes and offerings CAN be worship

    But bear in mind, by that token
    Sweeping the floor can be worship.
    Fixing your car can be worship.
    Etc…..

    But we would certainly not follow up “As the deer pants” with all of us whipping out our brooms and sweeping the church floor!

    We need to make a distinction between the ordinary and the sacred. A worshipful attitude and the potential to be an act of worship does not automatically qualify every activity to be included within the flow of a public service.

    For example, our pastor loves to stop and do the announcements in the middle of our singing because he says it is part of worship because the activities we are announcing glorify God.
    I disagree completely. At that part of the service our focus should be completely on God, not on us ad what we will or will not be doing even if we are doing it for God’s glory, with God’s help in the context of God’s church!

    I intend no disrespect but, to me, that reveals either a gross ignorance or a gross indifference to the moving of God’s Spirit among His people in preparation to receive the word and a misunderstanding of the level to which “worship” can be used by God to teach us, challenge us, convict us, edify us, encourage us and motivate us!

    Just a thought…
     
    #31 Onlybygrace, Mar 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2009
  12. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
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    Pastor Larry, let me see if this helps you understand what Jamie is getting at. I don't mean to put words in Jamie's mouth either, so correct me if I missed your point Jamie.

    I want you to think back to the day you knew you had been called to ministry. What did that feel like? I don't know about you but I cannot pinpoint a single word in Scripture that says, "I have called Dwayne or Larry into full-time pulpit ministry." I cannot say that the stars aligned in written script nor was there an angelic visitation proclaiming, "God has need of you!" Remember? You just knew that you knew that you knew. It was not an emotional, warm fuzzy feeling. There were no accompanying signs. You just knew that God had spoken to your heart. In my case, it was anything but euphoric but that is a matter for discussion elsewhere.

    I think we all agree that God is the object of our worship. "O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together." (Psalms 34:3 KJV) I know many equate worship with how does that make ME feel. I don't get the sense that anyone is advocating that in this thread. What I see raised is a concern that we so fear that if we are moved or quickened in worship that we detract or take something away from exalting our Heavenly Father.

    For the choir director; on the Gittith. A Psalm of the sons of Korah. How lovely are Your dwelling places, O LORD of hosts! My soul longed and even yearned for the courts of the LORD; My heart and my flesh sing for joy to the living God.
    Psalms 84:1-2 NASB

    I believe this Psalm provides a beautiful picture of worship. Absent is a cry from the Psalmist to feel jazzed up - for the lack of a better term at the moment - because he had worshiped. What I do see, however, is what may be at the heart of a perception that worship has become dull or flat. He writes, "My soul longed and even yearned for the courts of the Lord." Someone wrote earlier that worship begins long before Sunday morning. Indeed, indeed!

    Longing and yearning are very human emotions. I would suggest that it would be difficult for most of us to define exactly what we mean by those two words. Harder yet would be to describe what My heart and my flesh sing for joy to the living God. means without the inclusion of terms of human emotion. We are emotional beings - part of being fearfully and wonderfully made. I see no where in Scripture that suggests our worship should be severed from any emotional tie. I think I understand where you are coming from as well, Pastor Larry. There are some who ascribe to the notion that there is some sort of arbitrary "Quality Worship Quotient" that is directly proportionate to how that individual responded emotionally to the corporate gathering.
     
    #32 padredurand, Mar 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2009
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    But the question is how will I know it. The Bible says "Test the spirits to see whether they are from God." By what standard can I test this spirit?

    Where?

    As far I know, when the Bible talks about the indwelling Spirit, it talks of it in terms of obedience. Do you know any place where it uses the indwelling Spirit for this "feeling"?

    So what in the Scriptures tells us how to discern whether this feeling ... this experience ... is true as opposed to counterfeit?

    Do you realize that you have not actually said anything here? You have not given one iota of biblical evidence or biblical support for your position.

    I have had people tell me that they had the Spirit, and were feeling the presence of the Spirit while living in sexual immorality, doing drugs, cursing, etc. By which of your standards given here can I refute them? They would say, "I feel the Spirit." I could say, "How?" They say, "You just know it."

    That is extremely suspect reasoning.

    So you need to actually offer some biblical support for your position. Don't just tell me "You know it" and "The Bible says it." Tell me how I know and where the Bible says it.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Didn't feel like anything. God told us all to preach the Word and gave me a particular gift for public communication and a desire to pastor people. It wasn't a feeling, which helps me tremendously on days when I don't feel like doing it. I remember it is not about how I feel.

    It came from the word. I can document my call to preach from the Scriptures. That is all I am asking for here. Document from the Scriptures how we know.

    I am not sure we all agree on that or not. I think some people worship their feelings.

    How would it be hard? I think it is very easy.

    Why would it be hard and why would we need to avoid terms of human emotion? I haven't suggested that at all.

    I don't either. I think that's a straw man. I certainly haven't suggested anything of the sort.

    How is that not what is being suggested here?

    If we believe the Bible is our rule, then we ought not to have a problem defending this from the Bible?
     
  15. Victorious

    Victorious Member

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    Forgive me for butting in, but I would love to give my answer to this question.

    Musical worship is scriptural. However, at the heart of all worship is to have a heart prepared to give glory to God. EVERYTHING we do should be done WORSHIPFULLY. Musically, our hearts should be in a state of worship.
     
  16. Onlybygrace

    Onlybygrace New Member

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    "Musical worship is scriptural. However, at the heart of all worship is to have a heart prepared to give glory to God. EVERYTHING we do should be done WORSHIPFULLY. Musically, our hearts should be in a state of worship."

    You're not butting in at all Victorious your comments are most welcome.

    But I have to say that either we are avoiding the real question posed or we don't understand it.

    There is no dispute regarding the fact that we should have a worshipful attitude or that musical worship is scriptural or even that worship is a lifestyle and there are different styles of worship.
    Let me also further qualify my question by saying that although I do understand that worship is a broad term, for the purpose of this question I am defining it as music and singing of songs in a public church meeting.

    Do we simply sing because it is scriptural to do so?
    What is the purpose of public worship(singing in particular)?
    What does it do for me? To me? In me? Through me?
    I'm not interested in the usual cliches of: "it glorifies God, etc."

    Can my life be changed through worship?
    Is there a deeper spiritual level to worship that we sometimes miss?
    Are we sidelining a supernatural element to it?
    Are we writing off emotionalism in worship because we wrongly regard it as a characteristic of out-of-control worship rather than a result of truly deep worship?

    Anyone have any REAL answers?
     
    #36 Onlybygrace, Mar 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2009
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Perhaps, but that is enough of a reason. However, it will soon grow into more reasons.

    To teach and admonish one another and to sing to the Lord, according to Eph 5 and Col 3.

    Teaches us, warns us, encourages us, and gives us an outlet of praise and thanksgiving to God.

    Can't be changed towards godliness apart from worship.

    Not if we are worshiping.

    Not if we are worshiping. I think we often see an added fleshly element to it (as is being demonstrated here).

    Some might. I certainly wouldn't. I have often said that I think we are bad meditaters, and bad celebraters. We don't do either of the things that worship is about very well.

    Yes, of course.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    How much emotion does Luther's "A Mighty Fortress is our God," instill in you?

    How much emotion does a heartfelt rendition of the Star Spangled Banner sung at a sports event instill in you?

    Is the latter worship, even if it has more emotion?
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Maybe it's a "burning in your bosom." After all that's how the Mormons know that the Book of Mormon is true.
     
  20. Victorious

    Victorious Member

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    So, you say you are a Baptist. What kind if I might ask? Do you attend a local congregation? Or, do you not want to answer these questions? LOL!
     
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