Do BOTH Cals/Arms Affirm Doctrine Of Election?

This only proves my point that you don't understand what they are saying or what we believe. You made the same mistake interpreting them as you did interpreting me. You presume that God's divine work of grace is always effectual which is just begging the question.

While I admit that different non-Calvinistic scholars use differing terminology to explain the process (as is true of Calvinistic scholars), the principles are basically the same. But, I do admit, that does make things confusing at times, but no more so for Arminians as for Calvinists.

 

Perhaps if you restated my views accurately, then we would know. In that particular post you did not.

 

You all seem to miss that election is both corporate and individual:

Was Israel the elect nation? YES.
Was every individual Jew saved? NO.

So what does that mean? Every individual Jew was granted the opportunity to enter covenant with God, but not every one chose to do so.

So, election is about God's choosing to grant a group of people the opportunity to enter covenant with God, yet the individual in that group must respond according to the condition of the covenant agreement.

 

What is being chosen if you deny the one sent to save you. It is a bad thing when those who know(or to memorize) the scripture backwards and forwards, but can't recognize the promised one?

 

There is no condition of covenant agreement in the biblical covenant.
it is not a fifty /fifty deal.....It is of God.

 

WD......you might not be "so quick" to do it, because I am not certain that you hold to any distinction between a general call {outward} and the inward effectual call to the individual sinner.{the elect}
If you understand this ...we might agree on something.

What do you think takes place.....it is all up to man? there is no inward call to the elect sheep?

 

The problem is that the passages that speak of election, people are always the objects of the election. Your view has "to save people" being the object. He elected to saved, where as I believe that the people were the objects. Individuals are saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says he chose us for salvation. Ephesians 1 says he chose us and in the context of salvation.

There is of course corporate election, but there is also individual election. Israel would be an example of corporate election. Salvation is an example of individual election.

 

I guess I do need to get out more. You're the first non-Cal that I have ever read who did not appeal to foreseen faith as the ground of election. More than that, you're the first non-Cal I've read who opposes that view.

 

Not so.. I never have and nor has Webdog (to my knowledge)

 

I never said they weren't, please go back and re-read what I wrote.

 

And people are individuals as I stated in the other part of my post.

 

...and your point is.....????

 

Read my post that I made. I said that it is individuals and then explained further.

The objects of election are the people. The result is salvation. He choose individuals to be saved. This wasn't based on any foreknowledge of faith.

 

My mistake, Allan. I must not have been paying attention.

So, refresh my memory, so I don't have to review your posts. What do you hold is the ground of election, if it is not foreseen faith?

 

And as my post explained, we don't deny the application of election for individuals as your post seems to presume.

I agree with the first sentence, but if the second sentence is accurate then every Jew should be saved because clearly God elects the people of Israel. Election, as Paul explains in Romans 11 is being grafted in to the revelation of God by which one may be saved, it is not salvation itself otherwise you would have individuals being "cut off" and thus losing salvation. They aren't being cut off from salvation itself, they are being cut off from the means by which they might be saved.

 

The concept of foreknowledge and election is not about God looking down the corridors of time to see what individuals will choose and then choosing them. There may be aspects of that going on in the process, but I don't believe that is what Paul is speaking of when he teaches these doctrines.

Election is about a group or nation being "grafted in," as Paul puts it in Romans 11. The Gentiles were being "grafted in" while the Jews were being cut off. The revelation by which the Gentiles might believe unto salvation was being made clear to the Gentiles, but it was being hidden from the Jews. The Jews, known as the elect nation, were now being cut off from the special revelation of God and it was being sent to the Gentiles. "I will make for myself a nation that is not a nation..."

It is NOT about individuals, it is a cooperate concept being discussed. Now, there are times when God chooses (or elects) an individual for a special purpose (apostles/prophets), but this should not confuse people about the cooperate aspects Paul clearly explains.

The error in understanding biblical election comes when (1) the reader fails to understand the corporate nature of divine election in the covenants of God and (2) when people fail to distinguish between God's choosing of individuals for noble purposes (like apostleship) and the corporate aspects mentioned in the first point.

 

Not all Jews have been elected to salvation.

 

And that was my point... Israel was elected corporately, but only those within Israel who believe will be saved. Their election didn't guarantee their salvation, it granted them the opportunity to be saved. It grafted them into the tree of God's revelation.

 

No...you miss it;

Among the nation...there was an election of grace
Today...among the world, there is also an election of grace...

Not everyone in Israel
Not everyone in the world

 

Neither of us believe everyone in Israel or everyone in the world will be saved. But we all agree the gospel was sent to all the world...in my view that is evidence of God's election of all. Election is about God's grafting them into the tree or cutting them off of the tree as Paul explains in Romans 11. Now, if you believe election is unto salvation then you MUST believe men can be saved and then lose their salvation because Pauls says they are cut off.