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Do messianic jews have to keep the law?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Feb 19, 2008.

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  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    Do you know David Stern? He is a jew and a translator of the jewish new testament. In the introduction of the new testament he writes some things which are really confusing. Stern is of the opinion that the new testament has first of all been recorded in hebrew and not in greek. He also thinks that the new testaments which we have have been mistranslated because the translators do not know the jewish background of certain words. For example Stern believes that Jesus did not come to put away with the law, to fulfill it, but he believes that Jesus came to fill the law up. So according to Stern trying to live according to the law is not negative at all. This is really confusing. Does he really believe that a messianic jew or maybe even a christian should try to keep all those rules in the old testament? How in the world is this supposed to be possible? Doesn't Paul make clear that it is not possible and that trying to hold the law doesn't make sense because if you only fail once you fail completely?
    But then again Paul also said other things which confuse me, such as these here:

    Act 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
    Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
    Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
    Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
    Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
    Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
    Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

    Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

    Why would Paul make an offering? Wouldn't he step out of the grace by doing so? And does verse 24 mean that a messianic jew has to keep the law while a normal christian doesn't have to?
     
    #1 xdisciplex, Feb 19, 2008
  2. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Not according to my reading of Scripture. The Messiah is the fulfilment of the Law the last time I checked (Matt 5:17, 18; Luke 24:44; Rom 10:4).
     
    #2 TCGreek, Feb 19, 2008
  3. gekko

    gekko New Member

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    TC... Jesus didn't come to get rid of the law though..

    you say it was fulfilled -- and thus you don't have to keep the laws... yet that's the same as aboloshing the laws which is just the opposite of what Christ came to do.

    right?
     
    #3 gekko, Feb 19, 2008
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law not me. And I believe He did. Let's put the emphasis where Christ Himself put it, on Himself.

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matt 5:17, NIV).

    2. Then following His resurrection, Jesus Himself said that what were written in the Law and the Prophets about Him, have been fulfilled.

    "He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms" (Luke 24:44, NIV).

    3. This is very clear to me. Take up your disagreements with the one who uttered these words, Jesus Christ himself.
     
    #4 TCGreek, Feb 19, 2008
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You ask a very good question. Obviously in the context of Acts 21 Paul is not arguing that Jews should Ignore scripture as some have hoped.

    Unfortunately you have asked a question in context with a specific chapter of scripture - I am forced to respond IN context!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Feb 20, 2008
  6. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    I think that we all are to keep the law by faith that Jesus writes it on our heart.
    It is the sacrificial Lamb that is removed. Jesus is that Lamb and all that pertains to the flesh, ie; circumcision, has been crucified on the cross. The tithe also is done away as there is no temple to maintain but that of your own body. Wherein dwells the Holy Spirit. Giving becomes motivated by Grace and not by commandment.
    These things are done away, completed in Christ.
     
    #6 Palatka51, Feb 20, 2008
  7. gekko

    gekko New Member

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    are we not to live as Christ did?

    well.. tithes are talked about and encouraged in the N.T.
     
    #7 gekko, Feb 20, 2008
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    ...Where?....
     
    #8 Amy.G, Feb 20, 2008
  9. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    The tithing that was encouraged was a tithe of mint anise, cummin, rue and all manner of herbs. Do you tithe of your herbs, gekko?

    If tithing money was so important, why do you think Jesus did not mention it in Matthew 23 and Luke 11?
     
    #9 standingfirminChrist, Feb 20, 2008
  10. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    I was involved in the Messianic Jewish movement (I am a born again, blood washed Jewish believer in Christ) for almost 10 years....and yes, the particular congregation I attended was Torah observant and they did put the believing Gentiles who attended back under the Law right along with the Jewish believers..They went so far as to say that going to "church" on Sunday was PAGAN. That's why I left.

    As far as I am concerned, the Messianic Jewish movement is simply another branch of Judaism. A good example of what is happening today in the MJM is found in Paul's letter to the Galatians. Also, read Acts 15 about what happened at the Jerusalem Council.

    There are some "Jewish" missions which are made up of born again Jews who are NOT associated with the Messianic Jewish movement...we have one coming to our church this Sunday (International Board of Jewish Missions):

    http://www.ibjm.org/distinctives.htm
     
    #10 Linda64, Feb 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2008
  11. gekko

    gekko New Member

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    not encouraged.. rather rebuked by Jesus though. mmm. rather Jesus rebuked the pharisee's for being hypocrites about it..

    maybe tithe isn't mentioned in the new testament.. so i thought wrong - don't have to get all uptight about it. man.

    i found this though --
     
    #11 gekko, Feb 20, 2008
  12. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    And that has Grace written all over it. :thumbs:
     
    #12 Palatka51, Feb 20, 2008
  13. gekko

    gekko New Member

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    heck yes!

    why do christians go with 10% stuff then?

    (sorry. i'll start new thread.. this is not a tithe thread)
     
    #13 gekko, Feb 20, 2008
  14. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    As for tithing. The justification is basically that Abraham gave Melchisedek 10% of his stuff. The bible says Jesus is a high-priest like Melchisedek and because of this the christians say that we have to tithe.

    Something which I think is really stupid is that I have repeatedly heard now from different christians that in order to really fully understand the bible you have to know hebrew!

    If you cannot understand the bible totally without knowing hebrew then what if we are wrong? What if David Stern is right and we think that we don't have to worry about the law anymore and talk about it as if trying to keep it is bad and legalistic and the truth is it's not? :(
    But on the other hand trying to live like a jew seems absolutely impossible to me. I think trying to live like a christian is hard enough.
    But then again those verses from Acts 21:24-25 sound as if jewish believers have to keep the law while christians don't. This sounds as if they have it much harder than we do.
     
    #14 xdisciplex, Feb 20, 2008
  15. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    xdisciplex--

    I've been there (in the Messianic Jewish movement)...read and study the book of Galatians carefully to understand this movement. David Stern is not God. If you are a born again Christian, the Holy Spirit will guide you into the Truth...not David Stern. Sounds like you've checked out The Complete Jewish Bible.

    The Messianic Jewish movement is full of legalism...pulling believers back under the Law of Moses. The congregation where I attended for 10 years was "Torah Observant"...meaning they kept Torah and it was pagan to go to church on Sunday or call someone a "Christian"...or even to use the Name of Jesus. Yeshua was the only proper Name to use. Like I said in my previous post above, the Messianic Jewish movement is simply another branch of Judaism, IMO. Try not to get pulled into it!!

    Here are a few really good websites warning you about the dangers of the "Hebrew Roots/Messianic Jewish movement":

    http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/dangersHRM.html

    http://www.raptureready.com/rap40f.html

    http://www.watch.pair.com/peshitta.html

    http://www.isitso.org/guide/hebroot.html
     
    #15 Linda64, Feb 20, 2008
  16. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Problem comes from Paul's sloppy writing, or maybe sloppy thinking. There isn't a single verse in Exo thru Deut that obligates gentiles. There is logically nothing in dispensational theology that obligates gentiles to observe the Mosiac Covenant.

    Reformed, that's a horse of a different color. Logically, Reformed believers should be obligated by the entire 613 statements.
     
    #16 billwald, Feb 20, 2008
  17. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    Hi Linda!

    No need to worry. This stuff isn't for me.
    I also don't really feel "comfortable" with christians which are too much into Israel and which do not call the people by their "normal" names but use the jewish names. Like Yeshua for Jesus and so on. This is rather disturbing for me and I wonder why they do this. When you read the jewish NT then you have to learn all the jewish names and also many other jewish terms and this is rather confusing in my opinion and not helpful.
    Do you think that Stern is deceived? The impression which I got somehow after reading the intro of the NT is that this is once again leading to a jewish "supremacy" when it comes to interpreting and understanding the bible because according to him you can't understand the bible unless you speak hebrew and have the jewish new testament.
    And what I also don't like is when christians are being pushed to becoming total Israel fans and when they are told that they have to travel there or maybe even move there. I, as a gentile, think that living among jews would be a pretty huge culture shock because I can't identify or understand what they do and why they do something.
     
    #17 xdisciplex, Feb 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2008
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus asked John to baptize him he said "so that we may fulfill ALL righteousness" -- fulfill does not mean "abolish" it means "fulfill that which is required of Him".

    Paul points out in Rom 3 that fulfill does not mean abolish as well.

    "Do we then make void the law of God by our faith - God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31.

    A better word then is ESTABLISH - to fulfill is to ESTABLISH when it comes to laws of all kinds - because it means that you are complying with what the law requires.

    Those who do not approve of this Bible solution - should take up their disagreements with the author of scripture -- I am simply "reporting the news" not writing it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Feb 20, 2008
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The "context" of the discussion is that the Jewish leaders tithed ALL right down to the spices in their gardens. Christ was pointing out that this was indeed a very detailed and thorough tithing system but they were missing the weightier matters of justice and mercy while being totally focused on tithing right down to the spices in the yard.

    Christ then provides the summation that they should not ignore the weightier issues even while continuing their diligence in the lesser issue of tithing.

    Christ never said "stop tithing income as scripture demands -- just look for spices in your yard" as some would have us believe.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Feb 20, 2008
  20. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    Thank you Linda for sharing your experience and this information. My sister was drawn into this about 8 years ago. She went into a tailspin and eventually left her husband. I have not seen her in almost 4 years. :tear:

    You seem to have learned from this what God wanted you to. Please keep warning people about this and the effects of "falling from grace".
     
    #20 trustitl, Feb 20, 2008
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