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Do Sinners go to hell due to rejection of Christ/Or Their Sin Natures?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, May 5, 2011.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    They are all means God employs..in those who are effectually called to bring them to salvation. The cross was not provisional but definate and actual.

    You did not respond to what i posted about Pauls appeal as it relates to this passage...we are ambassadors for Christ
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I know he employes them. I asked what do they accomplish that the inward effectual working of the HS (some call it regeneration) doesn't accomplish?

    Again a false dichotomy. As if something that is provided for all can't also be definite and actual.

    That is because it was based upon the premise imposed by your false dichotomy, to which I did respond.
     
  3. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Iconoclast...

    More scriptural truth for your consideration...


    Any historian, Iconoclast, will tell you that there have been many nations and tribes who began, proliferated, and then died out without ever hearing the gosple message.

    And yet God says that that some of them are in heaven. (Every tribe, and every nation)

    How did they get there, Iconoclast? They never heard the gosple, yet some of them are in heaven.

    They got there by faith, in the only revelation they had, wich I posted previously. They did indeed recieve Light. And God considered their faith in the revelation they recieved to be acceptable.

    God does indeed
    It is a lie that millions are in hell for not recieving truth...that they never heard.
     
    #83 Alive in Christ, May 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2011
  4. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    rb

    What about the blood alone that one is Justified before God ?

    Rom 5:

    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    Do you anything about Faith in this verse ?
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Quantum,

    This verse does not help you.The gospel goes worldwide before the last day so there is no problem in that their will be people from all over.every tribe kindred and nation
    It is not a lie that millions are in hell, and as a matter of fact, they are waiting for millions to follow..
    Saints in heaven rejoice in the righteous judgement of God in rev19:1-19
    Can you rejoice in this,and sing praise for God,either in salvation or damnnation...
    All in heaven get there by Gods grace, God has His elect all throughout the world jn 11:50-52. Election does not bother you does it , quantum
    Does Gods wrath bother you? Does your "theology" allow for both, to the praise of God's glory?
     
    #86 Iconoclast, May 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2011
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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  8. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    No offense, but I'll not take passages out of context. Jesus was speaking about what he was doing RIGHT THEN. Jesus also stated he didn't come to condemn the world, but people will be condemned. I already quoted Revelations which stated exactly what I said.
     
  9. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Hmmm...

    Iconoclast....

    Do you realise that you are reading my post..(Alive in Christ :wavey:) but calling me Quantumfaith?

    :tongue3::laugh:

    AiC
     
  10. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Iconoclast...

    But it is an undeniable fact that many of those ones never heard the Gosple of Jesus Christ, and yet they are now in heaven.

    You have consistently said that the gosple must be heard and recieved, and if they never heard it..too bad. They are not one of the "elect", and hell is their doom.

    But these scriptures make clear that many who never heard the Gosple, obviously heeded some form of "Light" given by Christ (the Light of the world) and were accepted by God just as those who recieved Christ.
     
  11. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Quantumfaith....


    Back at ya!...

    :applause::applause::applause:
     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Can you show where in the context of John 12 it contradicts the clear meaning of what Jesus says in this verse regarding what will be judging men on that final day.

    I don't dispute that people will be condemned. The question is, "What will condemn them. What are they judged for?"

    You say they are "judged for their works/sins," while Jesus says, "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

    Along with the many other verses I've provided I see no reason to believe otherwise.
     
  13. Fred's Wife

    Fred's Wife Member

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    I agree...
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Quantum quoted you in his post, so I got confused somewhere along the line:smilewinkgrin:

    if any of these "lost tribes" are in heaven.....you or I do not know if God in mercy has elected infants who die in infancy, or mentally handicapped persons, or whatever he has in mind for them.
    I or you do not know the geneology of these tribes ,so it is speculation not certainty that any of them are in heaven.
    There is no indication in scripture for you to claim it is an undeniable fact....citing secular historians.
    There is not any other way into heaven. Those who died before the flood are not there.
    This line of arguement is false anyway you cut it.

    I have never said too bad. I have pointed that out to you before.

    If anyone is not elect...they will be in Hell justly for their sins.
    Only those elected by God will be in Heaven.
    You put the word elect in quotes....as if it is a dirty word, or as if you would make light of it. AIC....if you struggle mightly with ELECTION...it could be you have a very flawed theology, don't you think?

    You do not want to be found denying such a clear biblical truth do you?

    Answer your own question.....what happens to the non-elect?
    Your jn1:9 verse does not cut it....
    This is completely false and unbiblical..sorry...you cannot support this wrong idea biblically
    I do not think anyone believes this.
     
    #94 Iconoclast, May 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2011
  15. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Jesus didn't come to judge them at that time, but there will be a judgment later(vs 48). If one rejects the words of Jesus, he will be judged on the last day. John 12:48 "The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."

    I don't think you got the point.
    Jesus was talking about the current time. He came not to judge but to save. Revelation is very clear that at the Great White throne, people will judged for their works. Unbelievers will have sins. Believers will be covered by the blood of Christ. Jesus said he came not to judge, nothing about there never being a judgment of sins.
    Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done." Those people who's name isn't written in the Lambs book of life will be judged according to what they have done. They won't have their sins blotted out by the blood of Christ. They won't be presented blameless (Jude 1:25) as those that are saved will be.
     
    #95 jbh28, May 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2011
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Quantum,
    It is good there is some agreement,
    then you say this;
    Ok, what do you believe about it? How is it different?
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    skan,
    View three is not valid, it is fatalism.
    view 4 is really not scriptural, Jesus said He finished the work given to Him on behalf of those given by the Father.....it is exact,particular , complete , and definate.....not at all provisional, and synergistic.

    I think the answer here would be it leaves them even more responsible having received greater light. The scripture speaks of those who wonder and perish. The same means which are made effectual by the Spirit,are also death to others ;
     
  18. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    We agree on this point.

    Right, and what were those words? Were they words of condemnation for sin? No, he didn't come to bring condemnation. The Law does that. The words of Jesus were words of reconciliation with God. It is the rejection of him and this words that will condemn them, not their breaking of the law. Jesus fulfilled the law and removed the curse of sin and death once and for all.

    Notice the qualification of what separates the two. Believers and unbelievers. Not sinners and nonsinners. Thus, they are judged/condemned for their rejection of the truth (unbelief. Point made.

    I think Fred's wife's rebuttal of this view is worthy of repost:

    Even the saved are judge and rewarded for their works and given a crown as reward...

    Plus, you haven't addressed all the other passages which clearly show that they are condemned because they didn't believe.
     
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't want to put myself in the place of defending a view I don't hold to, but I'm not sure how you can make that claim of this view while avoiding it for your own.

    We agree that he finished the work given to Him, that it is exact, complete and definite, because those descriptions are not unique to your view. There is no passage that supports the idea that Christ only died for a select few, which is why even many Calvinists question and debate against this view. Many even question if Calvin himself held to this view. Why? Because there is so little support for it and even the support that is used is vague and unsupported by other passages. I could list all the verses, but I suppose you are very familiar with them but have chosen to interpret them in support of your position.

    Please explain how persuasive means leave a totally dead, depraved reprobate "more responsible" when he is born completely devoid of responding to light according to your view? That would be like saying: There blind guy over there who can't see because he was born blind, but I'm going to shine a brighter light right in his eyes to make sure he is responsible for his blindness. It just seems absurd to me. Can you explain it?
     
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