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Featured Do the aborted and babies that die . . .

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, May 4, 2021.

?
  1. No.

    76.5%
  2. Maybe.

    5.9%
  3. Yes.

    11.8%
  4. No opinion.

    5.9%
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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    God spoke against a saying used as civil law to justify sin.
    Ezekiel 18:2-4, ". . . What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."

    Jesus taught killing of the body does not kill the soul, the soul dies only in the Judgement, Matthew 10:28.

    Ezekiel 18:20, ". . . The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. . . ."

    Revelation 20:12, ". . . the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
     
  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You are confusing two separate situations thinking they are the same.

    and your children will wander in the wilderness forty years and suffer for your unfaithfulness, until your dead bodies lie finished in the wilderness.” (Numbers 14:33) (NET)

    “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” Exodus 20:5 (KJV 1900)
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The text does not say that. That is how you are interperting the text. Even if that is the case, names are still blotted out of the book, Psalms 69:27-28, and only those who overcome, per 1 John 5:4-5, will never have their names blotted out, per Revelation 3:5.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 32:33, ". . . And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ." Psalms 69:27-28, Revelation 20:15.
     
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Many were not written. Reprobate cursed of God.
     
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:15 (KJV 1900)

    “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” Revelation 17:8 (KJV 1900)
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately in the end, in the Judgement names being in or not being in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    The little children who die as such and the aborted children who God gives the gift of salvation based on the finished work of Christ, their names will have been in the book of life. If any of them perish, then for what ever reason, not written or blotted out.

    Jesus did teach, Mark 10:15, "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."

    To Jesus instruction to be born over, Nicodemus asked, John 3:4, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Only ones said are not written are those who worship the beast, Revelation 13:8, ". . . whose names are not written in the book of life . . . ." And Revelation 17:8, ". . . whose names were not written in the book . . . ." No where else.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Mark 10:15, "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
     
  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The names were never written. You are adding to scripture if you say they were.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The texts do not say never.
    From Revelation 13:8, ". . . ων ου γεγραπται τα ονοματα εν . . . ."

    From Revelation 17:8, ". . . ων ου γεγραπται τα ονοματα επι . . . ."
     
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    They say they were not written. This means never written. You want to add to God's word implying they were written and then blotted out. But it doesn't say this.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is the inerpertation you and others place on that text.
    I do not. But like I pointed out if that is what is means in Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 regrading names not being in the book of life, it is in regards to those who were worshipping the beast. Then the general atonement is also be a limited atonement. Names are still being blotted out, Psalms 69:27-28 or never blotted out Revelation 3:5.
     
    #113 37818, May 9, 2021
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The only names in the book of life are the saved. How many does that represent when compared to the untold trillions not written there?
     
  15. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    I am just trying to wrap my head around some concepts; God is the only perfect being and is incapable of sin. God loves to create; it is part of His nature, but when God creates He doesn't create another God He creates something that's less than Himself that has the capacity to sin, degrade.
    God makes a way for His creation, which is created in His image, to be free of sin by adoption into His son, Himself.
    Because God is omniscient He knows His entire plan and knows who will be born even though sin and death will be part of the equation.
    God supposedly in advance determines who will be elect and who will be damned and writes the elect peoples names in a book, except I don't see where people in the Book are called elect? 1 Peter 1:2 is the closest i can find, but that doesn't say anything about the Book. Rev 17:8 is a lot closer but still doesn't specifically say elect and neither does Rev 20:15. Is it an assumption that the Book only contains the names of the elect? If only elect people's names are said to be in the Book that would define the Book's function.
    If this is only an assumption that leaves room to define the Book of Life as something else and that would undercut what some people assume about God's intentions when it comes to saving and making people elect. If you don't believe people are made elect, but have always been elect, then the process of becoming elect is a useless formality; why pay the blood price for a person's sin and adopt them into your family if they have always been part of that family. This concept says elect can do nothing but be elect and the damned can do nothing but be damned and surprisingly I have to partially agree. If God is omniscient then He has always known who is elect and who is damned, but I can't agree that God's intention was to create good people and bad people and He succeeded on both accounts, literally making God the creator of evil people. I believe God made humanity imperfect so that they have a capacity to sin but aren't directly created for evil. Instead, God created humanity and some failed to be good, due to the imperfection inherent in anything that isn't God. God didn't create good and evil people and they both worked perfectly, but God created humanity good, and humanity failed to be good.
    With that said if God created humanity initially good, and everyone that God knows will be born wasn't declared bad until Adam actually sinned, then maybe everyone that God knew would be born had their name in the Book of Life because it was a book declaring everyone who would live through Adam, who was the creation of Jesus Himself; hence the name "The Lambs Book of Life. Then it is a book of creation and not a book of salvation.
    If it is a book of creation, and everyone's name starts out in it, then when Jesus in Rev 3:5 discusses blotting someone out of the Book it could be He is talking about people who haven't been declared elect and you have one reason now that people can have their names blotted from the Book; that being someone who doesn't overcome. Another reason that I see would be getting the mark of the beast.
    Now you don't have to take Rev 3:5 out of the context of a warning to the worst church and say that Jesus was actually encouraging the Church that He would never blot anyone's name out of the Book; a stretch that you are forced to make if you believe only the elect have their names in the Book.

    As far as names not being written, God also says "depart from me I never knew you"; why, because when your name is blotted from His Book there isn't a record of your creation any longer...


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  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Does God morn what he discards in the trash? why would you?

    I find it weird how people have to grow a conscience and sympathy "greater" than God's. They make relationship with God sound like a never ending funeral.
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Some peoples greatest work gets their heart and soul poured into it.

    Can God do better than that?

    Its in the nature of GOOD to share its own capacity to love everyone with everyone. Can't counterfeit GOODNESS. A person can label themselves or their idea of God as "good" but when its evil its OBVIOUS to the rest of the world.

    Why would God object to you learning to love as he does? Countless demons will work for an answer for us.
     
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  18. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    I love you man!


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  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Why would an aborted baby's eternal state be any different than that of an infant that dies another way?

    The Gospel is the same for all. No man cometh unto the Father but by Jesus. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
     
  20. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Hi Aaron, the subject title may be deceiving it's simply asking if babies born or unborn or children who haven't come to consciousness, go to heaven or not when they die. The subject matter fairly quickly broke down into a discussion debating that elect people who have their name in the book of life are those who are saved and it doesn't matter if they're a baby or not. If you would like my opinion on it, which is probably the most unique, I posted in 9, 18, 21, 63 and 116. Topics normally close after around 130 posts so if you want to join in there is still time! God bless you


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