Do we all really believe in a 'limited atonement?'

Can you give me scriptural references for the second condition for salvation?

 

John 6:37-41, Christ died only for those that God gave him, which was not all mankind. All that he died will live with him in heaven without the loss of one.

 

Christ died only for those that his Father gave him and all that he died for will live with him in heaven without the loss of one, John 6:37-41.

 

We are all, both the elect and the non-elect, born into this world as natural beings, without any righteousness, and stay that way until God quickens his elect to a spiritual life, Eph 2:1-5.

 

Death is a seperation, and a lot of the scriptures use death as a seperation from God's fellowship, and not fisical death.

 

Then how do you explain John 6:37-41?

 

Oh no! Don't tell me you think that they are quickened(made alive), and then later saved and placed in Christ, do you?

 

I am so enthralled with???? This statement is what gives away your agenda.
I welcomed you to the BB...and tried to answer your question....but evidently you were not looking for an answer ....but for a Controversy:thumbs:
We can do controversy if you like...but now I see where you are coming from.:thumbsup:

I have the sermon with me....I have two copies of The metropolitan tabernacle...I am somewhat familiar with Spurgeons sermons...so I know you were twisting it..either intentionally...or you lack reading comprehension skills...that you are attempting to project on me.

yes he does...so maybe you can re-read it and you will see this that you must have skipped over;

.
This is your true agenda.....nice try...but I am not buying what your selling

“Now, have I not answered these two questions honestly? I have endeavoured to give a scriptural reason for the dealings of God with man. He saves man by grace, and if men perish they perish justly by their own fault. "How," says someone, "do you reconcile these two doctrines?" My dear brethren, I never reconcile two friends, never. These two doctrines are friends with one another; for they are both in God's Word, and I shall not attempt to reconcile them.”
--- Second topic

The ability to choose something..does not address the question of mans will.

Again..you now speak of "extreme predestination"..what exactly is that?
Predestination is a biblical teaching...primarily dealing with the elect sheeps sanctification. All salvation is based upon God's eternal covenant.

The bible speaks of the ungodly as being self willed...but you will search in vain for the false philosophical concept of free will which is a myth.

I do not have to ,it is your false presupposition that it exists.
I do not labor under this mis conception as you do.

The whole genesis account of creation and the fall ,along with romans 5:12-21,1cor15... as well as the active obedience of Jesus explains it perfectly to those who have eyes to see,or would care to learn.


Then there is the line of your previous response that describes how you think God was dealing with Adam through a “works based covenant”, to which you do provide a scriptural reference, just to a passage that supports nothing of the kind.

Here is where I think you are presenting a false doctrine.

You said;

“God had been dealing with Adam in what is often described as a covenant of works...or a covenant of life....Hosea 6:7
Now in my old worn out KJV I can easily find Hosea 6:7 - “But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.”

if it is so worn out ..try youngs literal:

(NASB)


7 But like [a]Adam they have transgressed the covenant;
There they have dealt treacherously against Me



Hosea 6:7
(WYC)


7 But they as Adam brake the covenant; there they trespassed against me.
What Covenant would be in view here???

[/QUOTE]
Yet you say Adam was under a “works based covenant”?

It seems you have waded into water much too deep, and in a sincere desire to “prove” something you have decided in your mind is true, you are confused into believing a very common, but dangerously false, doctrine.][/QUOTE]
One of us has waded into waters that are much to deep...and I know who it is:thumbs:
You totally missed what I said about the first Adam...and the last Adam.....and Jesus active obedience
re-read my other post.....We are saved by Jesus perfect works on our behalf...he keeps the law perfectly for.the elect sheep.
We are saved by grace ...through faith which is all a gift of God....but the perfect righteousness is provided for us by Jesus law keeping

[QUOTE4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth][/QUOTE]

If I have not misunderstood you, then what is even worse is you are now trying to teach this falsehood to others, via the very wide venue of the Internet.

Such a thing, is a product of man’s “Religion”, and this is one false doctrine which cannot withstand any honest study of the Holy Word of God.

There is no such thing as a “works based covenant”, and there NEVER has been.[/QUOTE]
You are mistaken......

The Covenant of Redemption is based on the work of the Son,[His law keeping, His cross work} the last Adam, the True Israel.....he came to DO the Fathers will. The Father accepts His work as perfect.

 

I simply do not see what you claim Jn 6:37-41 says. Because the same man wrote;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Are you claiming all men will be saved because all men are drawn?
MB

 

Iconoblast,

You welcmed me in words only.

Because I disagree with you, whether it be on doctrine, or the meaning of Spurgeon, is beside the point.

You called what I said "Lies" and "Falsehoods".

I said nothing to merit such an ugly response, it is just a tactic you choose to win arguments.

I am not angry at being called a liar, as it is not true.

However, if this is how you respond to another believer, I hate to think of the damage you would do behind a pulpit, and God forbid you ever go on a mission trip.

Rather than preaching the GOSPEL, you spend your time here earnestly defending a doctrine I am sure you believe, but in all truth should be of little interest to a mature Christian, as it is an irrelevant doctrine to anyone who is already saved.

The only purpose your combative "debating" serves is to bring back an old controversy that has split apart the Baptist church in centuries past, and is doing so again today.

You call me a liar, you label what I, and countless millions of other believing Christians, believe as a heresy.

You have no authority, place, or right to define how anyone other than your own "self" came to salvation.

I do not speak for you on this matter, but your actions do, and the words you use toward other Christians are damning words, from one end or the other.

Chist commanded we preach the Gospel, but rather than bringing new believers into the Body of Christ, you are working overtime to drive other, already believing Christians out of the Baptist Church.

I have been a Baptist more than half a century, I grew up in a very large SBC church, and prior to 2000, both sides of this old controvesy existed in harmony within the same Church, and it was only with the revisions of the BMOF that self righteous zelots were again to be heard thrashing those who disagreed with there precious Calvin.

I cannot speak for you, but I am indwelled by the Holy Ghost, having Blessed Assurance in my salvation.

You are so puffed up in pride over what you think you know that you dare to tell me how I came to know God.

You are just anogher pilgrim like me, no more, certainly no lesss, and you have no way to know how God has dealt with me.

God works in His own ways, and it is not your place to define them.

There are many Christian "beliefs", but there is but one Christian "Faith.

That LIVING Faith is a Gift of God.

If what John Calvin taught speaks to your heart, and brought you to God, then that is your truth.

It is not my truth.

Before you start impressing us alll with your vast knoweldge by damning me to Hell as a heritic, please consider two things.

You don't get to tell my testimony, I was there when it happened, and I ought to know.

Being prideful of knowledge is the oldest curse on Mankind, and you would do well to consider not only the facts of, but the nature of Adam's disobediance, and the result of the works of knowlege you do here.

 

They have to be made alive so that they can receive the things of the Spirit of God. The strictly natural man cannnot receive the things of the Spirit. He cannot because he is dead spiritually. Once he is made alive spiritually by the Spirit he can receive the things of the Spirit, namely the Gospel, and be saved.

 

ACF....Not totally sure why you go into this emotional rant, but you evidently have issues. Lets walk through this.
As I previously posted when you twisted Spurgeons words....You come in here with an agenda. Now it is coming out and you want to inflict it on me.
The problems you have with biblical teaching can be helped, but not if you are just set to resist. Lets see what is on your mind....
my responses are in red letters.

This objection is also vile. because I answer you on a question does not equate to being prideful.Only when you cannot answer you seek toshoot me and any others who might have learned something that you have not as being prideful.
Pride is not a good thing....by willful ignorance is not a gift of the Spirit either.
If you do not believe as i do ...fine ..offer scriptural correction. this emotionally unstable rant you may keep to yourself:thumbsup:

 

So then there's spiritual life outside of Christ then? A man/woman is dead in sins, but alive spiritually to hear and receive?

 

it would and does IF you mean that Jesus in actuality had actually died to pay/atone for sins of all sinners, and not just died so that all Might Potentially be able to receive its effectual work!

IF jesus actually did indeed died in the place of all sinners, that he really paid their sin debt in reality and they were reconciled back to God because of the Cross..

Would have either sinners in hell with atonement provided for them, or else they rejected Jesus, but still had sin debt paid in full!

That is where concept of Universalism creeps into the discussion!

 

Dachaser1,

Thank you for trying to get this thin back to what it should be, a rational discussion of differing theological views on election.

 

They're already condemned and in their sins, on the path that leads to eternal death prior to rejection of Christ, not because of. Escaping condemnation comes through knowing Christ and indicates ones former standing in condemnation prior to knowing Him.