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Do We Love the Brethren?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

    1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

    1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    Scary, isn't it!
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    maybe so, but consider my question in the context of Paul's time against the context of our time.

    In Paul's time, there were three classes of people: Pagans and idol-worshippers (Rome and Greece), Judaists (Lawkeepers), and Christians.
    The Christians knew that when another names the name of Christ they can be pretty sure they share the same major beliefs, they know the backgrounds from which these people came, they saw Christ for who He was: a successful, risen, seated Redeemer and Savior, and they understood that God in His sovereignty have chosen them and others out of a fallen race.
    Paul spoke of this matter of factly without having to explain in specifics what he meant.
    Peter spoke of election matter of factly, and even the Founder of the church spoke of the elect in a way which communicated it was common accepted doctrine among His audiences.
    So you might say that the Corinthian believers shared the same basic Christology doctrines as the Romans and the Ephesians and the Colossians and so it is just right that they call each other brethren.

    In our context for today, pray teach me how we are united ? Christ does not even unite us. How could we say we are united in Christ when one believes Christ's work needs his affirmation through his acceptance of Christ and the other believes nothing is necessary because in terms of eternal salvation the only ingredients were Christ's obedience, the Father's will, and the Triune God's mercy and grace ?

    How could we say Christ unites us when one believes the blood was shed for a particular number of people and the other believes it was shed and efficacious for all men ?

    Where is the unity of brethren when a group believes that there is no such thing as a universal church and another believes there is such a contraption as the universal invisible church ?

    By the way, for what it's worth, there may be Primitive Baptists who believe in such a beast as a universal church, because the local church view is also a view among many Bible Baptist Fellowship churches,and have been preached in many non-fellowshipped Baptist churches.

    So what is left ?

    A group of believers where one and all share the same basic doctrines, and practices, and that is what I mean when I say I love my Primitive Baptist brethren. I agree with them, they agree with me, we are One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit. Can you say that of this thing called THE church ? Which church ? which brethren ?

    And read my posts.

    Did I EVER say in any of the posts that the subtle one replied to that I, or Primitive Baptists, HATE anyone not within OUR churches ?
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Please forgive my ignorance by why do they call it "Primitive"? Again I can not find this group in New Jersey so I'm naturally curious?
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    There is a Primitive Baptist church in Rosewell (?), New Jersey. One of the oldest buildings of PB's in the States. Ours was built around the 1700's in Maryland.

    Around the 1860's there was a division of Baptists in the US over missions, tithes, seminaries, Sunday Schools. There were those who felt they were being "left behind" in the Lord's work by protestants, episcopalians and wanted to go on missions.

    You can read about this if you google "The Black Rock Address".
    Those who split called us Primitives, because we insisted on worshipping the old way: no musical instruments, no special numbers, no Sunday School, just pray, teach, sing.

    Those who split became among the first groups of missionary baptists.
     
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Primitive Baptists of the Wiregrass South by John G. Crowley, pp. 59-60:
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Pino, there is none within 65 Miles of me & never heard of rosewell NJ? Anyway thank you....I still searching for a Church thats both Reformed & Baptist....they appear to be rare (at least not in my backyard)
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    You're welcome. Mistyped. Should be Hopewell which is a few miles north of Trenton, NJ.
    God bless on your church search.
    And the church is now a historical site.
    members have died or moved on.
     
  8. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    First, I don't recall using the word hate, so toss that out right away.

    Second, I still think that you are really stretching the Word of God that you seem to want to cling to. How about instead of my using the introduction to Romans, I use any other epistle in the NT? They all read similarly. Or, I can turn to OT law and examine the requirements for Israel concerning the sojourner in their midst.

    No, and this is not a personal attack against you as a brother in the Lord, I believe that your theology is incorrect on this point, and that you have taken something that is plainly evident and stretched it to what you see as an advantage for your group to the exclusion of all others.

    I just don't see God operating that way in the Scriptures.

    In essence, what you are saying is that if I were to come to your location and desire to stop in to meet with you over coffee, where we might pray together, that you would re-buff my efforts because I am not a member of your church. There is no possible way that matches the Scriptures where so often Christ prayed for unity, the Apostles preached for unity, and God laid down laws for unity.
     
  9. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I said: Pray, teach me where we are united.
    You people like to pontificate and tell me I am wrong here, or wrong there, or stretching here, or stretching there, and ignore my questions.

    Tell me where the unity is.
    Tell me how one who believes that the absolute sovereignty of God includes His absolute right to choose whom He will whether arbitrarily or not, can sit down in worship and agreement with someone who thinks that God's sovereignty includes His giving a fallen creature the free will to come to Him and both call the other's belief unscriptural.
    Just about the only thing they have in common is they both call themselves Christians.
    Think of a JW and SDA and yourself bowing down together.

    And the only reason you would even think of stopping by for coffee is because we are already familiar with each other, and accept each other's views.

    And please.
    I am a civilized human being who will not rebuff anyone wanting to sit down and have coffee with me.
    If you all think you're holier than I am because you love everyone who names the Name of Christ, then go ahead.
    I am not a hypocrite who would say I love you and afterwards in a discussion or debate in so many words call you a heretic.

    Your beloved friend the snowman have constantly misrepresented what I say.
    I said I loved my brethren, and he says this means I hate those who are not of my faith. I did not say that.
    In print I have said I will treat them with respect, and not disturb the waters just because I don't agree with their beliefs.
    If that is not LOVE, tell me what it is.
    His hatred for me and what I believe is subtle.
    Mine for him was more open.
     
  10. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Brother, all I can do is commend to you a study of the Scriptures. God will have to change your heart.

    I work with multiple churches, denominations, groups, agencies, etc., in both my personal ministry and in my church planting work. I see many others doing likewise.

    We enter into a dialog, and let the Scriptures do the talking in any number of denominational settings, and all to the glory of God who is working to see His glory and His gospel spread to all peoples of the world.

    Would I be correct in assuming that you are also anti-missionary in stance?
     
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I will commend the same thing to you.
    Forget what you learned in seminary, go back to Scriptures and proceed from the standpoint that Christ is a Successful Savior, a Glorified Redeemer, a Seated Intercessor, and coming Bridegroom and King, and that the universality of the salvation He has secured for His people means that His people are all over the world, in all ages, found in every point of the compass, and that His blood here in time sealed their atonement He began in eternity past as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and maybe you will understand where I am coming from.
    My beliefs are known to everybody here, and I have been consistent.
    Christ redeemed His people IRRESPECTIVE of their faith, creed, race, tongue, and none will be bypassed in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

    Yes, I am anti-mission because today's missions have one avowed purpose.
    To get souls saved for eternity.
    That dishonors the work Christ did on the cross.
    His people's redemption and salvation were FINISHED at Calvary.
    His instructions were to TEACH what He taught, which is what will save His people from their errors in this time world.

    I am anti-mission because there is nothing in the Bible that says any board has the authority to determine who is FIT to go out and preach the gospel, or that any board acts as financier of missions.
    The one who claims to have a call to preach the gospel must IMMEDIATELY go out, seminaried or not, armed with pledges of support or not, and depend entirely on the Holy Spirit for his education, and the Creator who creates out of nothing for his support.
     
  12. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Pinney, I love this quote from you:

    I don't know how an Christian could find himself so far away for where Christ wants him to be that he would actually say something like this. :tear:
     
  13. calvin

    calvin New Member

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    i wont judge how close or far he is from Christ, but i strongly disagree with his statement. missions are designed to do more than just preach the Gospel. the law of love found in James plays a huge part. what good is it to spread the Gospel, and not take care of a persons physical needs? it would kind be like when the u.n. had a meeting in africa, about hunger in that region, had a great big banquet prepared for themselves, while they posted armed guards outside, to keep the starving people out, so they could enjoy their fatness and largess in peace. its hypocrisy in action. its sickening.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Couldn't resist, eh ?
    What's the matter, your ignore button not functioning ?
    And by the way, it's Pinoy.

    Well, here's what it is.
    The Creator God sends HIS OWN son, in the likeness of human flesh, to redeem FALLEN, God-rejecting people unto Himself, for His eternal kingdom, to be taken into heaven, either when they die here on earth, or when He comes back to earth.
    HE lives a faultless, sinless life here on earth for 33 years, knowing that in the end He will have to go up a cross and die there on that cross, and that He did, too.
    At the cross, all the sins of the people for whom His Father sent Him were brought upon Him, imputed to Him, and His friends abandon Him, above all, His Father turns away from Him.
    Then He resurrects from the dead, goes up to heaven, and by the authority of the blood He shed SAT (rested) at the right hand of power, and intereceded for those whom He left behind.

    Those He left behind, 12 of them, were charged with spreading the good news of a Successful Redemption, an accomplished Salvation, a Seated Savior, and hope for a people who used to be slaves to sin, wallowing in spiritual darkness, and POINT this people to Christ as the true God, not the idols they worship, not the laws they strive to keep.

    All these 12 preached a gospel of a finished redemption, NONE of them preached a finished redemption that needed a little more addition to complete : like the preaching of the gospel as an environment where the Holy Spirit can work for God's elect to be brought to conviction and therefore to Christ making the gospel the MEANS to salvation. None of them preached that the sinner must repent IN ORDER to be saved and therefore redeemed. They preached repentance and Godly living as PROOF of their calling and election. They preached faith and obedience to Christ and love of each other as PROOF and NOT THE CAUSE of their belonging to Christ.

    Yet down the line, man has corrupted the simplicity of Christ, and the simplicity of the gospel.
    Now, the united, overwhelming message is Christ IS Savior and you, the sinner, MUST accept Him as your Savior, or must come to Him IN ORDER to be saved, or must BELIEVE in Him for His finished work to be effective for you.

    There are no such requirements laid out for God's people. Christ went to that cross to redeem His people because it was His good pleasure to do it, because His meat was to do the Father's will, because He is a gracious and merciful God - - TO HIS PEOPLE, AND THEM ONLY.

    I will not support these types of missions.
    Even if they are Primitive Baptists.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    In the very beginning of modern missions' history, the great missionaries such as Livingston and Hudson and Carey (sp?) had a two fold purpose. They were mostly Doctrine of Grace adherents and their goal was to reach God's people, and at the same time, use their skills and abilities to further serve the community from which they hoped God's people will be drawn from.
    Those who could not go to those far-flung places stayed where they were and started orphanages or feeding houses. All these are commendable, but again, with all due respects, you missed the point. Or did you ?

    The point is not what they do to others.
    The point is what they do with Christ and His FINISHED work.
    Charity as well as judgment begins in the house of God.




    Oh, pulleeeze.
    Don't talk to me of hypocrisy and starvation.
    I once lived in a country where my only footwear in the cities were a pair of flip-flops, my wife's was a wooden clog, and my kids' were hand-me-down rubber shoes, while somebody's wife ordered air force planes to go to Paris and buy her and her daughters shoes.

    We once lived behind a big Baptist church building who held their banquets and their fellowship lunches while my family and those around them missed their early meal and didn't know where the next will come from.

    I was a member once of a Bible Baptist church where members who were once warm to me cooled off, because they often smelled tobacco in my breath.

    I had once been a struggling seminary student with kids to raise who have gone to meetings and "speaks" by some "renowned", well respected pastor whose audiences were made up of preachers and pastors barely making their way financially hoping that in the end that pastor with the rich congregation will "offer" some aid for them to build their parsonages or their buildings or even just some hand outs they can use for a few days, while the renowned, "God-blessed" pastor of the big, rich congregation, stood in that pulpit with golden cufflinks, gold chain around his neck, silver or gold ring(s) on his finger, gold automatic 21 Jewel watch.

    And the Master he purports to serve hath nowhere to lay His head on.

    Don't talk to me about hypocrisy, secularly or ecclessiastically.
    I've seen it, met it, touched it.
     
  16. calvin

    calvin New Member

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    my sympathies for what you went through. youve had a tough road. yes these people were hypocritical in the way they treated you. i really could care less if you have tobacco on your breath. or alchohol for that matter. both in moderation i would say. but part of Christ finished work IS meeting our brothers needs. it does not matter how correct your doctrine is. or what message you are preaching. without love it is useless, and void. Peace :1_grouphug:
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I too have experienced it, although different from your experience, the essence of it was the same. What a sweet relief it was to hear the pure unadulterated gospel carried by the Old Baptists.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Guess we have a brotherhood of the po & destitute....I've been there myself but we have had to lean heavily on the Lord & put our trust in Him....along with our backs & minds & cleverness and He has not forgotten us. My wife is my own personal gift & she reminded me of the healing power of humor & laughter....and that has carried us through as well. One of two things happens in times of trouble .... Either your heart melts or it turns to stone. My own personal testimony is that when I was at my all time worst, when I was completely dead in my sins & could have cared less about God, that it was then that He came after me & it was an on slot & not very pretty. He came after me & convicted me & beat the heck out of me. And I could not deny Him! Yes, I am yours Lord. Please forgive me.

    So today, even with these nagging differences that at times makes me want to strangle someone, I have to see beyond it, to look at them & see the Christ in them that I know is looking in me, attempting to see the Christ in me. Then I can say, "Brother, I do love you. You are a child of God struggling as I am."

    Now if I cant laugh at that stupid silliness that almost had Lucifer rubbing his hands....as the Apostle said, I am nothing. If not for love I am a noise in the distance.

    Blessings & peace to all & praise God from whom all blessings flow.
     
    #78 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2011
  19. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I told you, I don't use the Ignore feature at all.

    I agree!

    I agree with most of it; I do think he died for the sins of the whole world though.

    Agreed!

    No, the bible is plain, sinners must repent, it's the Gospel.

    No, sinners must repent of their sins and accept the finished work of Christ on the cross.

    Yes, except, His people are the ones who respond to the Spirit when the Gospel is preached.

    You made this plain enough. Wrong, but plain.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    On the other hand we have:

    Acts 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus.​

    So "contention" among brethren is no new thing.​

    I don't believe the raw content of the issue of disagreement is the root problem. ​

    Obviously Paul and Barnabas were both sons of God but as the Scripture declares "the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other". ​

    Neither did they actually hate each other (though had we heard the talk coming out of the "sharp contention" we may have thought so).​

    So it seems here at the BB. Brothers parting ways over "issues".​

    I don't think it remained that way for too long between Paul and Barnabas and later each had sorrow and were troubled because of their words and responded in love to one another after the smoke cleared.​

    HankD​
     
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