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Do We Really Understand Fellowship?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TCGreek, May 17, 2008.

  1. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    Ok, I have one for you.

    My in-laws are charismatic. My father=in-law is a graduate of Rhema and is ordained as a pastor. He has been orfained for 15 years but only pastored for 2...that didnt work out, and nobody really knows the truth as to why.

    They are extreme word of faith believers. They actually think that as a "child of the King" that they can "command" God to do whatever their heart desires, mostly but not limited to making them rich and healthy. They believe that if they command God to do anything "In the name of Jesus" that God has to do it.

    When my wife was pregnant she had ultrasounds that showed the baby was a boy. My mother-in-law wanted a girl, so she prayed and commanded God to make that boy fetus into a girl fetus. She believed that God would do it, but of course He did not.

    They believe in tongues, being slain in the spirit, faith healing (as opposed to divine healing), dancing in the spirit, laughing in the spirit, and even drunk in the spirit. Their services are pretty wild sometimes.

    At the same time, they teach salvation by grace through repentance......basically the same gospel that we baptists teach. Even though they teach salvation by grace, I refuse to even enter into their church or to allow them to take my son there. They are my in-laws and I visit them and have family get togethers with them, but I will not fellowship with them.

    They of course, they think that I am evil and "quenching the spirit"

    I dont believe we should ever enter into a church service that practices unbiblical doctrines. All we are doing is condoning it, and maybe even opening ourselves up to spiritual corruption of our own selves.

    Do you think I am wrong for taking this stand?

    AJ
     
  2. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    I agree with you, ajg...my mother-in-law is Pentecostal and is a member of an AOG church and she says the Baptist church we attend here in MS doesn't have the "power"...we told her it did...the electricity is working fine :laugh:

    Seriously, I don't believe we would go to her church, but that would not stop us from visiting with her. Our fellowship is described in Ephesians 4:3:

    Ephesians 4:3
    Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

    That's my 2 cents!
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Amen, brother.

    Yet, we have made other things issues of fellowship.

    Pity on us, I say.
     
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    How can you truly fellowship one without going to their church?

    Would you like them to come to your church?
     
  5. Whowillgo

    Whowillgo Member
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    I agree with your stance both as a father and husband. What I would caution is that we must discern through the Holy Spirit those that have the same gospel. I do not believe the concept of God being indebted to our commands scriptural. Most in this camp do not understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ. If we can command God, then we do not understand grace.
     
  6. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    Oh I agree, I am just saying that on the surface, they teach salvation through grace.....but I question the motivation of the converts......for instance, when the message is always health and wealth and healing, wont many come forth for salvation because they want to get rich and get healed, and not because they are repentent?

    I am terrifed of commanding God to do anything, and I dont want to be around people who are doing this.

    AJ
     
    #26 ajg1959, May 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2008
  7. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    True "spiritual" fellowship is in the "unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Ephesians 4:3). Also, in 1 John 1:6-7:

    1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    True fellowship is, first of all, with God, then with those who are also walking in the Light (also in fellowship with God). Nobody can truly fellowship in the "unity of the Spirit" if they are in disagreement in doctrines. I've been to Pentecostal churches and for me, there was no "unitiy of the Spirit" becasue most of what was going on there went against what I believed to be "sound doctrine" and I was very uncomfortable "in my spirit" .
    I don't believe they would...and if they did, they probably would feel just as uncomfortable as I would be in their church.

    Where's the "unity of the Spirit" there? This does not mean that we cannot have "social" fellowship at family gatherings, etc. We have "social" fellowships at our church all the time---we call them "potluck" dinners.
     
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Paul spells out the seven ones of Unity that we must maintain (Eph 4:4-6). Have the Pentecostals violated these?

    Much of what we call fellowship is artificial and not truly biblical.
     
  9. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I for one completely agree that most christians don't know what 'fellowship' means.

    That said, it might be just me but you seem to be equating fellowship with going to anothers church singing and listening to preaching.

    Though I agree that is one small aspect of fellowship that of itself is not what biblcal fellowship is speaking of. (and I'm pretty sure you agree) Fellowship is not about coming to ones church or them comming to yours but about about sharing the resposibilities givin to the church. As a matter fact 'fellowship' means 'joint participation' or better a partnership. And a good defintion from the dictionary regarding partnership which encompasses the biblcal model is:
    This of course included finacial and material possessions as well.
    That aspect of intimacy or 'social intercourse' ascribed to the word as well can be seen in the close relationship that those who endevor in such a fashion would be unitied with one another in heart and mind thus being as one (or one body, with one Lord, ...).

    When the right hand of fellowship was given it was an invitation to the one it is extended to toshare in the responsibilities God has set before the church both in and with mutual cooperation to it's achievment of God's desire. Thus to the one whom fellowship was offered a partnership was established and they worked hand in hand together for the sake of the gospel and Kingdom.

    So the question is not "would you go to their church or all them to come to yours", but will you bring them along side to fulfill the commissioning command of 1)share the gospel, 2)Baptise, and 3)make disciples.

    Thus three important things that are given which we need to agree on regarding the immutable truths (and not so much the mechanics or secondary issues).
    1. the gospel
    2. Baptism
    3. main doctrinal tenents (it might best be stated basic theology)

    At least that is my opinion.
     
    #29 Allan, May 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2008
  10. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

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    Great post Allan.

    IMO, the TWO areas that Christ's Body is perpetuated (not sure if that is the word I need) in the world today is

    Word, and
    Sacrament.

    The Word, that is, the preaching of the Gospel. Christ, crucified, the power of God unto salvation.

    Sacrament, that is, baptism and the Lord's supper.

    Thus in terms of Fellowship, using your definition, do we fellowship in the preaching of the Word, the Gospel, with all of the doctrinal components that are foundational to the Body, and in Sacrament, that is, breaking of bread and baptism?
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    "Sacrament" is a taboo word among Baptists (as well it should be) because typically it is defined by the Church of Rome and at least two of the reformation churches as a means to convey "sanctifying grace".

    There is only one means to sanctifying grace, faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus christ, the blood of Christ being the tangible instrument (not water, or bread and wine).


    HankD
     
  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I was going to address that same 'wording'.

    There are a few (and they are typically baptist) in the reformed tradition who still use the word sacrament the definition is different and speaks of a visable sign regarding grace. However most of the Reformed and all the Catholics as well as all Greek Othodox Churches use the word in it's more common understanding which is basically - a means of grace or confering sanctifying grace.

    Baptist do not typically use the term 'sacrament' but 'ordinance' due to the traditional meaning of 'sacrament' and therefore it's implication.
    The Lords Supper does not impart any grace but instead is a rememberance OF His grace. The same with Baptism, it does not impart any sanctifying grace to the recipient but rather identifies the person with the grace bestowed to them regarding the salvation of God.
     
    #32 Allan, May 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2008
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Hi, brother TC. This thread is on the third page so I don't know if anybody has given an answer similar to the one I will give.

    I will only answer the question above.

    No, those who practice infant baptism are not Christians in the sense that the word Christian has been applied to those at Antioch, which is to say "belonging to Christ". BUT, there can be Christians amongst those who practice infant baptism, just as there can be Christians amongst all other sects and religions, since no one knows who God's elect people are, and in that sense neither can we say that all who profess God and Christ even among those in the churches we go and worship in and fellowship in are indeed among Christ's own people.

    So, I think fellowship should be amongst those who hold to the same doctrines and practices as one does, and by that I mean one should worship, go down on one's knees and pray with, and generally circulate amongst those who are of one's same persuasions, beliefs and practices, while passing thru this fallen world on the way to one's own.
     
  14. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    I totally agree with you here. If my cousin, who is Methodist, invited me to a service to baptise their baby, I would not go. My presense would affirn and condone a false doctrine. And that would be wrong.

    However, the question still goes unanawered as to if folks who practice false doctrines are indeed saved. In my cousins case, I doubt it. As a child she went through a "confirmation class" and after completeing it was accepted as a member of the church and deemed saved. I have spoken to her about God's plan of salvation and she has no idea what I am talking about, nor will she listen because she has been indoctrinated with Methodist theology.

    AJ
     
    #34 ajg1959, May 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2008
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Brother, this is where I differ with some or most of the electionists on this board.
    I do not also wish to say that all Primitive Baptists such as myself understand salvation the way I do, since my people are a diverse group and there are some things which deeply divide us even in these days.

    But here's how I see it.

    The salvation of God's people, whoever and wherever they are, have two aspects.

    Eternal, which is all OF the Lord, by grace, no merits, authored by Christ, and Him only, and requires nothing from the sinner. Nothing. Not faith, not works, not obedience, not repentance, not anything else which the popular gospel preachers of today say is required of the sinner.

    Not one iota of a semblance of works, or merit.

    Paul says in Titus 3:5, "not by works of righteousnesses which we have done, but according to his mercy.....".

    Faith is righteousness, obedience is righteousness, repentance is a righteous act.

    Christ put on a slave's form, lived a sinless life, and went up on that cross to shed His blood for the salvation of ALL His people, because it was His Father's will that He does so, because it was HIS will to do so.

    He didn't die on that cross and rise again for doctrine, or for practice, or for theology.

    He died to save His people from their sin, and from the wrath of God, and in order for them to be where He is when His Father tells Him to bring His bride home.

    The second aspect is timely salvation. That is, salvation here in this plane called time.

    Not all of God's people will hear the gospel in their time, or even come under the influence of the gospel. But those who do, and are drawn to Christ by the Father, are under obligation to repent of their wrong doctrines, and their wrong practices, and to turn from their idols unto the living God, NOT IN ORDER TO GAIN ETERNITY WITH GOD (that aspect of their salvation has nothing at all to do with their doctrine or theology), but in order to save themselves from ungodly lives, ungodly doctrines and practices, and to worship God in their midst here on earth.

    Read, if you will, and I mean no offense in saying "read", the Bible very carefully, and compare Paul's statements when he speaks of salvation in connection with the gospel and the church, and salvation in connection with the eternal destination of the redeemed sinner.

    I sincerely believe that God has His redeemed people even among those who are currently under the grip and teaching of erroneous doctrines, religions, and theologies.

    Who they are, of course, is another matter.

    I don't know, no one knows, but God does.

    Like I think I said previously, we don't even have the assurance that those in our own circles and with whom we fellowship will indeed be with us in heaven when the time comes.
     
  16. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    Sounds like predestination/calvinism to me.

    If obedience has nothing to do with salvation, and I cant control whether I am one of the "redeemed people", and if faith wont help????????

    Then why should I bother to read anything in the Bible?

    You are more or less saying that God has made up His mind about me before I was even born?????

    I dont believe that for a minute, Sorry, my false doctrine alert just went off.

    AJ
     
  17. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    What in Acts 11:26 gave you the impression that pedobaptists are not Christians?

    I see nothing in that text to that effect.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Fellowship:
    Three fellows in a ship: all rowing in unison, the same direction, the same purpose, the same cause: and that cause is Christ.
     
  19. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Brother, if you read the post, you will note that I am saying there may be Christians among pedobaptists, but not all pedobaptists are Christians.
     
  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    There may be Christians among baptists, but not all baptist are Christians.
     
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