Do you believe the Church started at Pentecost?

Yes, they are "God's people".

Can we find two peoples of God in the Olive Tree?

And how about those natural branches that were broken off - they were unbelieving Jews, right?

And the engrafted wild branches - they are believing Gentiles, right?

So how can believing Gentiles be members of the same body that unbelieving Jews were once members of?

Think about it.

 

The passage has nothing to do with who was or was not saved or who was or was not a believer.
Again, the passage is speaking of who God is presently using as His messengers to the rest of the world.
And we later see in vs 26ff the nation of Israel will, in the future again be graffed back and again become God's messengers to the world after the fulness of the Gentiles.

 

:thumbs: That's the way I see it.

 

We all know the mission of local congregations. What would you say is the reason for the existence of the Universal Church? And what commission does it carry out that the local church does not or cannot?

 

I don't believe that I used the term Universal Church. I will simply speak of the Bride of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has only one Bride, the Church, for which he died. The Apostle Paul draws the analogy between the Church and the Bride in Ephesians 5.

25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

We also read in the book of Acts:

20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Now if you choose to believe that there is a way to Forgiveness of Sin and Salvation other than through the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ, the incarnate GOD, then so be it. But you will be contradicting Scripture.

 

Marcia.

Who did Job worship?

Who did Melchizedek worship?

Who did those who dwelt in Salem where Melchizedek was priest worship?

Were they descendants of Abraham?

Were they of the tribe of Israel?

 

You are right, you didn't say Universal Church. Are you drawing a distinction between the Church and the Universal Church? If the Universal Church is not this:

, then would you give your definition?

Now, to Ephesians 5:25-27. Paul is speaking in a generic sense when referring to the husband and wife. Because in reality, it takes a real individual husband to love a real individual wife. And a real Christ to love a real individual church.

And Paul also spoke of the church in a prospective sense, but no church--local or universal--is today without spot or blemish. But it will be when the great General Assembly gathers in Heaven. At that point, there will be no more local congregations, for we will all be unified, finally knowing the truth.

With regard to Acts 20:28, let's remember that Paul was in Miletus, and called the elders to him from their congregation at Ephesus. He counseled the elders to take heed over all the flock (at Ephesus),

the one over which the Holy Spirit had made them overseers (at Ephesus).

He told the feed the Church of God (at Ephesus, over which he had made them overseers), which (obviously Jesus) he had purchased with his own blood.

I don't quite understand the last paragraph of your quote above. I hope I have never led anyone to believe I hold that view. If so, I repudiate it and state clearly that there is no other way to Salvation and Forgiveness of sin except through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus.

Now, my brother, I have sought to give my answer to your post. Will you now please answer the questions I raised earlier:

What would you say is the reason for the existence of the Church as you understand the definition of Church? And what commission does it carry out that the local church does not or cannot?

 

Being of the same body does not mean being in the church; it means being redeemed. This is not talking about a church body, but that the Gentiles would be saved and not just the Jews. You have to read into it to get a church out of this; you have to already believe the church exists in the OT.

I stand by the previous post I put here - that the church is the body of believers baptized into the Holy Spirit. There was no Holy Spirit baptism in the OT although some were given the Holy Spirit. The differences in how people had the Spirit in the OT and in the NT are astoundingly different.

 

Your questions have nothing to do with whether the church existed in the OT. You keep asking these kinds of questions. I will say again that yes, there were believers/redeemed people/saved people in the OT. That is not the issue.

The difference of the role of the Holy Spirit in the OT is very marked from the NT, where those who are saved are immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church is a body of believers baptized into the Holy Spirit.

Jesus even pointed this out. It is quite significant that he said the Holy Spirit could not come until He went away. Believers are spoken of as sealed with the Holy Spirit in the NT; this phrase is not used in the OT.

I am tired of pointing this out over and over and I think I will quit, just like the other thread where the same things are said over and over and over and over....

 

I don't agree with this but let's say you're right. Israel was broken of so that the "Gentile nation" (your words) may be grafted in.

Doesn't the fact that they were broken off/grafted into the SAME TREE make them members of the same body?

And I noticed you skipped my question, "Can we find two peoples of God in the Olive Tree?" Want to venture an answer?

 

How can we call the Olive Tree "the redeemed" if it once had branches that were broken off? What was it before the branches were broken off?

By the way, keep reading Packer, he's good.

 

Show me how the Olive Tree relates to the church.

 

There is a local body of believers which is called the church. Those who are redeemed are redeemed only by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The term Church is also used to refer to the total number of the redeemed. In the Scripture I posted the Church, as the total number of the redeemed is called the Bride of Jesus Christ. You are free to accept this truth or not.

Ephesians 5:27-28
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

It is nonsense to argue that Paul is speaking of a local church. Jesus Christ died for all the redeemed of all time and that is the analogy that Paul is using here, husbands are to love their wives as Jesus Christ loved the Church. No one is saying that the Church at this time, the total number of the redeemed, is without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, not even Paul. It simply states that Jesus Christ will present the Church to himself: a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. That will happen when Jesus Christ returns at the end of time as we know it. All one need do to understand this is to read Revelation 21 and 22 without the use of dispensational filters!

You are correct as far as you go. At this point the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, will be perfect. But you need to look at the entire passage:

Hebrews 12:22-24
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Notice that the passage uses the terms: mount Sion, city of the living GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem, the general assembly and church of the first born. All of these are terms used to describe the Church, just as the terms holy city, New Jerusalem, and Bride of the Lamb are used in Revelations 21.

Notice that Paul did not say feed the churches of God for which Jesus Christ died but feed the CHURCH [ that is singular not plural]. Can you guarantee there was only one congregation at Ephesus since there were many pastors/preachers? Who did Jesus Christ purchase with His blood? Everyone who has been or will be redeemed.

What is the reason for the existence of the Church? Consider Acts 2:46, 47

46. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Also consider John's admonition to the Church at Ephesus:

Revelation 2:1-5
1. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3. And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

This church might be called the perfect church but they had one fault. They had left their first love. What or who was their first love? Jesus Christ!

The first duty of the believer and the body of believers is to praise, glorify, and worship their GOD and Savior. All else is secondary. the church at Ephesus had got so busy being an organization they had forgotten their primary purpose and were chastened for that.

Since Jesus Christ is not polygamous HE has only one BRIDE. I use the term Church to include the total number of the redeemed, for whom Scripture states HE died, for whom HE shed HIS blood. That shed blood is the only means for redemption of anyone, nothing else will suffice. I generally use the term church when speaking of the local body of believers.

 

Marcia

You said:

Those people I mentioned were Gentiles and were not initiated into the nation Israel. That is the point I was making.

 

I agree, but I would preface it by saying the the OT saints were saved from hell because they could not set at the throne of God until the blood was spread. (see Luke 16)
How could anyone be member of the Body of Christ before it was revealed or before Christ became perfect through obedience? (Heb 5:8,9)

Again, I agree, but I would have worded it as:"the Church is a body of believers spiritually baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit."

I agree for we cannot read into the scriptures what is not there just to make the scriptures fit our theological views.

I understand your frustration; however I think we should always be aware of the "silent reader" who might be reading and seeking the truth.
If true Bible students remain silent from frustration, then where is the "silent reader" going to get the truth?

Many times I am reminded of the old saying:
"Don't confuse me with facts for my mind is made up!"

 

The word church itself is a mis noma and Roman Catholic term forced into the translation to rob the local assembly of both its autonomy and effectiveness in the world.

 

I've already made my arguments for my view in a previous post, so I won't repeat them here.

It surely looks prospective to me, particularly the reference to the "heavenly Jerusalem."

Re: Acts 20:28 Yes, singular. Specific congregation. The flock over which the elders at Ephesus were overseers. The flock which Jesus purchased with his own blood.

The passages you quoted were written to local congregations--at Jerusalem and at Ephesus.

Yes. And another duty of a body of believers is to assemble. When does the Church do that?

I use the term "kingdom" to refer to the total number of the redeemed. And, as you do, I use the term church when speaking of the local body of believers.

Just curious. Why can the Christ have several bodies but only one bride?

 

Um...but doesn't Ephesians say there is only 1 body though? And 1 corinthians also speaks of 1 body, so where do you get the many bodies thing from Tom? this eez very confoosin...

 

Gentiles engrafted = New Covenant Church.

The Olive Tree BEFORE the braking off of unbelieving Jew was the Old Covenant Church made up of natural Jews/national Israel.

The Olive Tree AFTER the braking off of unbelieving Jews and the engrafting of Gentile believers IS the visible church.

 

My position is that each local congregation is the body of Christ. Which is what Paul called the congregation at Corinth in I Cor 12:27: "Now YOU are THE body of Christ, and members in particular...

One may call a local congregation "A" body of Christ. Same difference.