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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 10, 2020.

  1. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Eph 2:14 KJV - For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition(G5418) [between us];

    The KJV translates Strong's G5418 in the following manner: hedge (2x), hedge around about (with G4060) (1x), partition (1x).

    a hedge, a fence; that which separates, prevents two from coming together

    What do you think created the wall, hedge or fence which separates the sinner from Christ?
    He, Jesus, is our peace who hath made both one by breaking down the wall.

    Gen 3:24 KJV - So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    God drove man out thereby denying him access to the tree of life.

    God grants access to the tree of life to His obedient servants (slaves).

    Hopefully, God, will allow you to get the smoke out of your eyes and overcome your bias against Calvinist to see the truth of His word.

    FYI - I do not identify with Calvin. If he and I agree on the truth of God's word, so be it.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am sorry Sir but your response simply moved on to yet another change of subject. All this accomplishes is to derail discussion of the topic.

    There is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for "total spiritual inability" as a result of the Fall.

    We make plans but God directs our steps, thus God allows us autonomous thoughts and actions, but only so far as He allows. He can and does intervene and restrict our options, such as hardening hearts to cause some to continue to reject Christ for a time. Proverbs 16:9, Romans 11:7

    Thus the Biblical Doctrine is that the Fallen have "Limited Spiritual Ability" able to understand "spiritual milk" but not "spiritual solid food (meat).
     
  3. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Scripture to support your position of "Limited Spiritual Ability".

    Scripture to support your position that God will honor your plans by directing your steps to accomplish them.

    Your position on "autonomous thoughts and actions" is in opposition with the following scripture. This passage says you are boasting in your arrogance and such boasting is evil.

    Jas 4:13 ESV - Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"--
    Jas 4:14 ESV - yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.
    Jas 4:15 ESV - Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that."
    Jas 4:16 ESV - As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

    Your believes are contrary to scripture.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Apparently the Calvinist intends to ignore the evidence and pretend it was not referenced. And then of course the Calvinist adds in gratuitous ad hominems, thus using fallacy to advocate fallacy.

    In the above referenced passage, the purpose to disparage me personally. The passage has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, other than document our human ability to make plans, whether in accordance with God's will or not.

    There is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for "total spiritual inability" as a result of the Fall.

    We make plans but God directs our steps, thus God allows us autonomous thoughts and actions, but only so far as He allows. He can and does intervene and restrict our options, such as hardening hearts to cause some to continue to reject Christ for a time. Proverbs 16:9, Romans 11:7

    Thus the Biblical Doctrine is that the Fallen have "Limited Spiritual Ability" able to understand "spiritual milk" but not "spiritual solid food (meat). (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)
     
  5. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    1Ti 6:3 KJV - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    1Ti 6:4 KJV - He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
    1Ti 6:5 KJV - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

    You have qualified yourself to join my ignore list.
     
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Well if you keep that up we won't have to read your false doctrines anymore.
    MB
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another Calvinist post charging me with bad behavior, while studiously avoiding the topic. This is all the Calvinists have, misrepresentation of both scripture and their opponent's views, ad hominems. and feigned outrage. :)

    The Calvinist posted James 4:13-16 but the purpose was to disparage me personally. The passage has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, other than document our human ability to make plans, whether in accordance with God's will or not. Thus the very passage chosen by the Calvinist actually proves the claim of Total Spiritual Inability that fallen humans cannot make holy (in the will of God) choices is bogus. Add it to our list!

    There is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for "total spiritual inability" as a result of the Fall.

    We make plans but God directs our steps, thus God allows us autonomous thoughts and actions, but only so far as He allows. He can and does intervene and restrict our options, such as hardening hearts to cause some to continue to reject Christ for a time. Proverbs 16:9, Romans 11:7

    Thus the Biblical Doctrine is that the Fallen have "Limited Spiritual Ability" able to understand "spiritual milk" but not "spiritual solid food (meat). (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)
     
    #67 Van, Jul 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  8. Summer

    Summer New Member

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  9. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Curious to know what you intended to post.
     
  10. Summer

    Summer New Member

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    I'm new here and I find this thread very interesting. While reading it Romans 2:14-16 came to mind.
    (I had a question on this verse and men bound in sin.) I looked up Matthew Henry's Commentary
    What are your thoughts on it?
     
  11. Summer

    Summer New Member

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    I also realize I may need to ask this in a different thread?
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Rom 2:12-16 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

    This passage does indeed address the capacity of the fallen to make holy choices. Note that some of the choices of the Gentiles do not go against "the Law written in their hearts" because sometimes their conscience defends them.

    There is no support anywhere in scripture for the false doctrine of "total spiritual inability."
     
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  13. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Rom 2:6 KJV - Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    Rom 2:14 KJV - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    Rom 2:15 KJV - Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
    Rom 2:16 KJV - In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    Gal 3:11 KJV - But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    Gal 3:12 KJV - And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    Gal 3:13 KJV - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

    Regardless of the source of the knowledge of the law, by nature of instruction, obeying it will not warrant salvation.
    The law condemns, it does not redeem. Only faith in the risen Christ can do that! Praise be to God!
     
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Of the Law of God – Under the Old Covenant, under the Law of Moses, the Law acted as a tutor, leading us to a knowledge of our sins and our need of a Savior, Galatians 3:24. Once born again, under the Law of Christ (also Called the Law of Liberty) we are to strive to follow Christ, and keep His commandments, 1 Corinthians 9:21. Primarily, we are to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and love our neighbors as ourselves, Matthew 22:36-40.

    Galatians 3:24 (NASB)
    Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

    The translation choice (eK = by) is common but perhaps not the best. "Ek" is a preposition which literally means "out of" or "out from" and refers to separation from something. We are called out from Jews for example. Another usage is to refer to the origin, source or basis, thus justified on the basis of faith.

    This translation choice makes it more clear we are put into Christ on the basis of faith, but it is Christ's sacrifice (His precious blood) that justifies.


    1 Corinthians 9:21 (CSB) To those who are without the law, like one without the law--though I am not without God's law but under the law of Christ--to win those without the law.

    Here I switched to the CSB because the Greek construction (without law as without law) needed a more interpretive translation. Paul did not follow Jew custom based on the Law of Moses, because he was following the Law of Christ. And of course as Christ's choice as His apostle to the Gentiles, Paul was indeed following the Law of Christ, keeping His commands.
     
    #74 Van, Jul 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Hello Summer. Welcome to the Baptist Board. :)
    Matthew Henry is generally excellent, though rather wordy.
    With regard to Romans 2:14-16, I believe that Adam had God's Moral Law written on his heart before the Fall, and so do his descendants, but smudged and defaced by the Fall. Fallen men and women know what is right, and some of them often do what is right. The father of a friend of mine was a dedicated and outspoken atheist, but he was outwardly very moral - a pillar of society, you might call him - but that did not make him right with God (Matthew 5:20). Such people, in my experience will often suffer from pride and anger; this man was a bully at home to his wife and children.

    In the New Covenant, the Moral law is written again on the hearts of believers (Hebrews 8:10), and this time the Holy Spirit will lead then increasingly to keep it. This second giving of the law is wonderfully adumbrated by the second giving of the Decalogue after the first tablets had been broken.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When and if God credits our faith as righteousness, the resulting actions of God are because of or by reason of, faith. Four prepositions, "ek," "dia," "en" and "epi" are all used to indicate faith (credited by God) is the basis for the bestowal of God's blessings, such as election for salvation.

    Romans 10:6 "based (ek) on faith
    Philippians 3:9 "on the basis (epi) of faith
    2 Thessalonians 2:13 "through or on the basis of (en) faith
    Hebrews 11:9 "through (dia) faith
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Of God and the Holy Trinity – One God in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19

    Of God's Decree- God before creation chose to bring about creation for the purpose of creating mankind for His glory, Isaiah 43:7

    Of Creation –In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, Genesis 1:1

    Of Divine Providence – God made everything and sustains everything and brings about the conditions useful for His purpose of creation, including altering the course of human events by intervention, Colossians 1:17; Deuteronomy 30:19.

    Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the punishment thereof – Adam volitionally sinned, knowing God said not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. This resulted in Adam being separated from God, i.e. kicked out of the garden, and his corruption, i.e. his eyes were opened. Genesis 3:7; 17-24

    Of God's Covenant – God’s eternal covenant was to provide eternal life for those of His choosing, based on crediting their faith as righteousness, keeping His covenant of love. James 2:5

    Of Christ the Mediator – Jesus is our mediator, our high priest who sacrificed Himself, becoming the propitiation for the whole world, interceding for those given to Him, taking whatever was against us out of the way. Hebrews 9:11-15

    Of Free Will – We make plans but God directs our steps, thus God allows us autonomous thoughts and actions, but only so far as He allows. He can and does intervene and restrict our options, such as hardening hearts to cause some to continue to reject Christ for a time. Proverbs 16:9, Romans 11:7

    Of Effectual Calling – I deny the doctrine of Irresistible Grace, men of flesh, unless hardened, can hear and understand and respond to the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14 – 3:3.

    Of Justification – refers to being made “right” with God, thus our “sin burden” is removed. This occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ, and undergo the circumcision of Christ, Romans 5:18, Colossians 2:11.

    Of Adoption – Our adoption refers to being made physical children of God when we bodily resurrected at Christ’s second coming, Romans 8:23.

    Of Sanctification – Salvation is presented in scripture as having three phrases, Positional Sanctification referring to when we are set apart in Christ 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Progressive Sanctification, referring to our life after being put in Christ where we strive to become more Christ like, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8, and Ultimate Sanctification, our Adoption at His second coming, 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

    Of Saving Faith - Faith God credits as righteousness, being from the heart, fully committed and devoted to Christ, having more to do with our love of Christ than believing the right doctrines, Romans 4:4-5; 24.

    Of Repentance unto Life and Salvation – God grants repentance via His revelatory grace, i.e. providing us with an understanding of God’s perfection and our sins and their consequences. When we repent we give glory to God. 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Revelation 16:9.

    Of Good Works – Before salvation, all our “good works” are as filthy rags to God, but upon being born anew, created for good works, we can earn eternal rewards if we build upon the foundation of Christ according to His will, Isaiah 64:6; Ephesians 2:10.

    Of the Perseverance of the Saints – Once born anew, we cannot undo. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

    Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation – If we have been born anew, our life changes, and we exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Thus, when we meet for communion, we are to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, and if our heart does not convict us, we are to take the bread and the wine in remembrance of our Savior, 2 Corinthians 13:5-6.

    Of the Law of God – Under the Old Covenant, under the Law of Moses, the Law acted as a tutor, leading us to a knowledge of our sins and our need of a Savior, Galatians 3:24. Once born again, under the Law of Christ (also Called the Law of Liberty) we are to strive to follow Christ, and keep His commandments, 1 Corinthians 9:21. Primarily, we are to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and love our neighbors as ourselves, Matthew 22:36-40.

    Of the Gospel and the Extent of Grace thereof – The only unpardonable sin is to reject Christ. Other than that, God will forgive your sins and remember them no more forever. Ephesians 1:7

    Of Christian Liberty and Liberty of Conscience – As ambassadors of Christ we are to be His witness to the world, thus being careful to not be a stumbling block to others. Romans 14:20-23

    Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day – The Law of Moses has gone away, and with it the requirement to keep the Sabbath, but we are to set apart a time for worship and reflection, and study and meditation, and Sundays are used by many Christians. 2 Corinthians 3:2-11

    Of Lawful Oaths and Vows – We are not to swear by God or anything else. Matthew 5:34

    Of the Civil Magistrate – God has established governance, and so we are to submit provided that in doing so would not result in violating a clear command of God. In the military the concept is known as following “lawful” orders. No massacring women and children because the officer said so. Romans 13:1-2

    Of Marriage - Marriage is the union of a man and a woman, both committed to Christ. Matthew 19:4-6

    Of the Church – Church refers to either the local temporal assembly of professing believers, made up of both wheat and tares, or to the general assembly, the bride and body of Christ, made up of all who have been born again. Hebrews 12:23, Ephesians 5:23

    Of the Communion of Saints – When we, believers, gather together we are to remember our indebtedness to Christ who gave his body, broken for us, and his blood, shed for us, and to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. 1 Corinthians 11:28

    Of Baptism – Christ using the agency of the Holy Spirit, baptizes us into the body of Christ spiritually, and then seals us in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Christ commanded we illustrate this spiritual baptism, and make a public declaration of our faith in Christ, thus we are to be water baptized and water baptize all who profess faith in Christ . Romans 6:3, Ephesians 1:13

    Of the State of Man after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead – When we physically die, our spirit/soul departs and goes either to heaven to be present with the Lord, or to Hades to suffer torment and await the resurrection of the dead. At the great white throne judgment, all the spirits in Hades will be reunited with physical bodies and be gathered for judgment. There names, not being found in the Lamb’s book of life, they are put into the Lake of Fire where they suffer and die the second death. Luke 16:19-31

    Of the Last Judgment – Those of us whose spirits go to be with the Lord, are also united with our glorified physical bodies at Christ’s second coming, and we are judged, with Christ awarding rewards for faithful service if we have built upon the foundation of Christ with material of eternal value, i.e. helped save lives. 1 Thessalonians 5:23, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15[/QUOTE]
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Oops, I see I provided the wrong reference for one of my examples. Here is the corrected post:

    When and if God credits our faith as righteousness, the resulting actions of God are because of or by reason of, faith. Four prepositions, "ek," "dia," "en" and "epi" are all used to indicate faith (credited by God) is the basis for the bestowal of God's blessings, such as election for salvation.

    Romans 10:6 "based (ek) on faith
    Philippians 3:9 "on the basis (epi) of faith
    2 Thessalonians 2:13 "through or on the basis of (en) faith
    Galatians 3:26 "through (dia) faith

    In Hebrews 11, many if not all of the "By faith" renderings actually just have faith, and so the "by" reflects the translators choice, perhaps based on grammar or context. I do not know. Thayer's indicates the form of the Greek word is a "dative of means" thus used to show the means by which something is achieved.
     
    #78 Van, Oct 17, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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