1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Doctrines becoming too inclusive?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JonC, Aug 28, 2017.

Top Posters
  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,493
    Likes Received:
    3,567
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I’ve been engaged in a fruitless discussion of Penal Substitution Atonement (PSA). During the conversation several things have become apparent to me. One is that the doctrine does not carry the meaning it once carried. I recall, either long ago or perhaps in another dimension (I’m starting to wonder about the later) PSA as being a distinct form of Substitution Atonement within a contextual judicial retribution framework. Back then, or on the other side of the mirror, PSA was distinct because it viewed God as punishing Jesus (as pouring out his wrath) with the punishment that was due man (“subjected to condemnation, he [Jesus] undertook and paid all the penalties which must have been extracted from them”). Now it appears just about any type of belief in both penal and substitutionary aspects of the atonement falls under PSA. The term itself becomes meaningless.

    The same seems true of other words. Calvinism is no longer Calvinism. Arminianism is no longer Arminianism. Who knows what happened to Amyrladinism. Baptists now have elders…one church even baptized an infant.

    I’m not going on and on (you are welcome), but just wanted to ask if anyone else has noticed our doctrines are becoming more inclusive, general, and superficial?
     
    #1 JonC, Aug 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,960
    Likes Received:
    1,694
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It all depends on a person's theological framework. For instance, I view Scripture from a covenantal, confessional perspective. That affects my opinion on the atonement, ecclesiology, church offices, sacramentology, soteriology et. al. Systematic theology has a way of keeping a Christian grounded and from bouncing around between mutually exclusive opinions. I think that has much to do with what you are seeing. There are quite a few posters on the BB who are all over the place theologically.
     
    #2 Reformed, Aug 28, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As one of the baptist distinctives is soul liberty, each church is pretty much free to go its own way. That can be good, and it can be bad.

    I was very careful when we moved to Texas to make sure the church we joined was of like faith and practice. Granted it was not an IFB church, but it was better than the only IFB church in the area.

    Theological situational awareness seems to be a forgotten practice. We need to be aware of what's going on around us and be ready to counter moves in the wrong direction.
     
    #3 TCassidy, Aug 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,796
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I fully agree. I am a Classical Arminian. I, like Wesley, believe that my doctrine is extremely close to Calvinism. Hardly anyone knows what a Classical Arminian believes. If I say to the average person that I am an Arminian, they immediately turn me into a "name it and claim it" or a "prosperity preacher." What? When did that become sound Arminian doctrine?
    The closeness to Classical Arminianism and classical high Calvinism is why I am open to Calvinism and interested in discussing it. Poor theology, poor terminology, poor understanding of history lead to just what you said.
     
    #4 Reynolds, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,493
    Likes Received:
    3,567
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is true. I also am SBC, which does incorporate a variety of opinions within it's fellowship (not necessarily individual churches, but the Convention as a whole does not take a hard stance on some doctrines that are more defined in other denominations). So even my personal experience within my own denomination may not reflect the reality others experience.
     
    #5 JonC, Aug 28, 2017
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,493
    Likes Received:
    3,567
    Faith:
    Baptist
    One of my favorite Classical (or Reformation) Arminian authors is Robert Picirilli (if you have not read his works, you may find them interesting).
     
    #6 JonC, Aug 28, 2017
  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,796
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have seen him quoted, but never read him directly. I will look for his writings.
     
    #7 Reynolds, Aug 28, 2017
  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,852
    Likes Received:
    1,085
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It has always been thus. Polemecism is an unforgiving occupation, and desire to triumph often overcomes strict adherence to the truth.

    If you've studied heresies, you will know that those who have lent their names to the various heterodoxies often did not hold to the positions that they are accused of. It is often their students who developed systematic theologies who are the real culprits.

    Arminius is a good example. I have no doubt he would be horrified to learn some of the theology that has been expounded by people identified with his name.

    The Anabaptists were pilloried and persecuted because some of their name went crazy in Munster. Thereafter, even the most pacifistic Anabaptists would be regarded as wild-eye revolutionaries bent upon violence.

    As to PSA, it has fallen upon hard times. I think it is a perfectly acceptable way to view the sacrifice of Christ in the atonement. I do not think it encompasses the entire universe of what the atonement means, as I have shared with you before.

    Specific formulations of doctrines are developed in response to contemporary events. PSA was a welcome remedy to the excesses of the Latin Rite, which had so degenerated in its theology that it preached (or at least turned a blind eye toward) a blasphemous idea that salvation consisted of repeating words the people didn't understand, treating bread as God and buying your way out of Purgatory.

    No, the Reformers declared, God in the flesh has borne the punishment you were due, and that is sufficient satisfaction to God to offer you sonship with Christ. It was a sacrifice made willingly by the Son of God and you are free from legalism, from guilt, from despair. So get up off your knees, stop worrying about the future and be about the work of the kingdom.

    I regularly listen to a Catholic radio program whose host regularly rails against PSA because "it's not just" and "surely God would not pour out his wrath on his own son" because God is not wrathful. Blah. Blah. God decides what is just and to object to PSA on those grounds is, well, a bit silly, but attuned to theology that thinks we have a better understanding of what is just than God.

    If you want to stick with Anselm with substitutionary atonement, that's fine. But the Latin Rite folks who want to keep Anselm cannot cry foul when the idea is developed to its logical conclusion.

    That was more than I intended to say. Sorry.
     
    #8 rsr, Aug 28, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,493
    Likes Received:
    3,567
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree. Often the doctrines fail to compare with the men whose names they bare. As to the atonement issue, PSA was not the only voice insisting on a propitiation with divine wrath in mind. Luther wrote in detail on this very issue. I suppose this reflects how theology often concentrates on what is significant at the time.
     
    #9 JonC, Aug 28, 2017
  10. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    4,320
    Likes Received:
    1,242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Then you should say more than you intend more often.
     
    #10 Rob_BW, Aug 29, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,493
    Likes Received:
    3,567
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I just wonder what our distinctive views and qualities will look like 50 years from now. Will terms like Calvinism, Arminianism, Baptist, ect. carry much meaning when it comes to describing what a church believes.
     
    #11 JonC, Aug 29, 2017
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...