Doctrines of Demons - 1 Tim. 4:1-2

It is a serious debate; one in which you are losing. There is no levity in doctrines of demons. I don't find this topic one to laugh at. Doctrines that ultimately are the cause of sending people to hell, or contrariwise, permitting them from coming to Christ, are not a matter of humor.

It is not a matter of "view," but of exegesis, hermeneutics, historical background, knowledge of languages such as Greek and Hebrew, and especially context. Many words and phrases have different meanings in different contexts. Also the Bible interprets itself. Compare Scripture with Scripture.
The authority to interpret Scripture comes from Scripture itself. There are many commands in Scripture to: Study, Search the Scriptures, Meditate upon them, Read, and take heed. My authority is not myself but rather the Bible itself; unlike the RCC whose authority is both the magesterium, and their Tradition. It is not the Bible at all.
I hope that helps.

Much of it, yes. It amazes me that you claim to be a Landmark Baptist but have never made a post that even remotely resembles the beliefs of one. Biblical Christianity does not even closely resemble what comes under the umbrella of "Christendom." Most of what is in that 1500 years of "Christendom" is heretical. Not to much of it is Biblical Christianity. Biblical Christianity has always been in the minority.

If you are talking about all of Christendom, yes that might be right.
Christendom does not equal Christianity.

Your statements are:
1. "The Bible is only a book."
2. "It is put together by people guided by the Holy Ghost."
3. "It is interpreted by humans, fallible humans, and then 2000 years after it was written."

Only the second statement made much sense.
The Bible is not just a book. It is a supernatural book. It is God's Book. It is inspired of God. It is God's Word given by inspiration to mankind. It is not "only" a book, like you say.

Your third statement is also amazingly naive and in error. It infers that no one had the Bible for 2,000 years, or that from now to the time of the Apostles there was no Bible. Did not Spurgeon, Wesley, or Luther, Calvin, or Tyndale, Wycliffe, Jerome, Augustine, Clement, Polycarp, etc. Didn't any of them all throughout history have the Bible? Or did just appear, today, suddenly, 2000 years "after it was written." How naive.
BTW, we have the writings of all the people I just mentioned: from the early church fathers through the reformers, to the later and current commentators. The Bible has never been out of existence.

The reason doesn't matter.
Marriage was forbidden, both in their cult, and in the RCC. To forbid it to any class of people (whether it be few or many) is a doctrine of demons. That is what the passage teaches.

That believes what? That salvation is by works? Yes they believe that, and it is a doctrine that will send them to Hell.

God already sorted it out, and made it clear in his Bible. Salvation is through Christ and his sacrificial work on the cross. It is not through the RCC. Only Christ can grant salvation.

Here is what is sad.
You claim in your profile to be a Landmark Baptist. I don't believe you are, but have come here deceptively. I hope you can prove me wrong. Your posts are ecumenical to the core. Landmarkists are the very opposite. They are separatists, most of them are more separated in their beliefs then most IFB churches I am acquainted with. What you have posted throughout this thread goes directly contrary to the beliefs of typical Landmarkist beliefs.

So be honest. What is your background. What church do you belong to, really? It is not Landmark, is it? A Landmarkist would never post the things that you do.

 

Doctrine of Devils - Direct commentary

It's talking about superstition - i.e. "old wives fables", "Speaking lies in hypocrisy" and the like in context to the rest of the passage.

The doctrine of devils is more literally interpreted according to many commentators, as in believing devils can do things they can't, or that rituals such as chasing the devils away with bells, holy water, and exorcisms can do things they can't. Old wives fables.

These verses have a long history in Christian literature dealing with superstition. We currently have a problem as a society with superstition as well. Forbidding foods, or practices like vestal virgins are examples, but not every example of "profane and old wives tales". It's superstitution that is being talked about here, which may appear inside or outside a church.

 

Hello Bob, haven't been around in a while, and I hope things are well with you and yours.

I have only read a few pages of this thread, so, I an not up on what has been discussed and presented, but I did have a question for you concerning the basic thrust of your presentation of adherence and application of law in the lives of Christians, and it is not meant to be by any means anything other than a question...out of curiosity.

What stood out immediately was the reference to a bat sandwich. And what came to mind , believe it or not, was the U.S. Navy, for this reason: I was given the account of a sailor that was stationed in a foreign country and eyewitnessed the poverty of the people there.

The nationals would root through the trash in order to find something that would sustain them for yet another day.

But, the incident of that account that stands out the most was that of a child, belly swollen, picking up a dead rat from the street...and eating it.

Now that puts that child in violation of the law twice-over.

The question I would ask is this: do we think it possible that in this world, and in history, has there ever been a child of God who has had to resort to eating something that would violate the practice of law-keeping?

Would the child that ate the rat be immediately identified as a heathen, because we know that the children of the righteous would not be allowed to starve, right?

Will that child be eternally separated from God because he ate of that rat?

Well, we both know that the child's diet is not what determines his eternal destiny, but what he does with the knowledge of God that he has received.

Going back to the rat sandwich, what also came to mind was this:


Luke 14
1And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

2And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.

3And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?

4And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;

5And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?


I understand that there are those who sincerely believe that one must keep "certain" laws, and view them as obligation in their salvation, but I would just ask, or perhaps state, isn't it abundantly clear that there is a law of righteousness that even Jesus taught, that sometimes makes doing that which is necessary the proper course of action?

Darrell

 

Should we not then extend the context to the whole counsel of God, and view the doctrine of demons to contrast sound doctrine?

Meaning, whether the source be Satan, demons, or false teachers, should we not view anything that is contrary to God's word as demon doctrine?

 

I do believe that the forbidding to marry and the teaching to abstain from certain foods is more than just wives fables. Paul identifies them as doctrines of demons when one looks at the context. Neither verse one, nor verse two ends with a period. They carry over to verse three, revealing that they are all one thought being conveyed by Paul.

The 'wives fables' is part of an entirely different thought that begins in verse six in a new paragraph.

 

I could care less what you believe DHK. I believe that you are completely mis-informed, willingly ignorant, and unable to engage in a reasoned debate without becomming emotional. So what?

I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else.

So - now I am dishonest. Hmmm... It looks like you're just angry because I disagree with virtually everything that you believe. I'll bet you stay that way most of the time too.

I'll be leaving this place now. However, before I go I would like to point out that you have no idea who is going to hell and who isn't. Yet you continually claim to know. One day, when you stand before God in judgment, an answer will be required of you for this behavior - especially if by that behavior you cause others to fall. I pity you DHK.

WM

 

The Bible makes it very clear who will be going to heaven and who will not.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

Yes, based on these Scriptures, and based on what a person tells me what they believe, I can tell you whether or not that person is going to heaven. It is not that difficult.

 

Matthew 7:16,20 tell us that we can know others by their fruits.

In Galatians and 1 Corinthians, we are given a list of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Also, in Proverbs, we are given a list of 7 abominations that people work.

Yes, we indeed can know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. Scripture gives us that ability.

 

This leaves out the sin of attributing power to devils that they do not have, which *is* a common sin in the churched and what the bible actually says here, and replaces it with general sins that everyone can feel comfortable that they aren't committing. An interpretation like this dilutes the word of God, and leaves everyone committing these sins or afflicted by those that do without guidance. It replaces it with "unsound doctrine", which is not a "doctrine of devils" by a long shot.

Its possible "doctrine of devils" is a lot worse than merely "unsound doctrine", and equally possible a lot of those claiming to be churched believe it even today. Christians have died over this verse.

 

There is no justification for taking the doctrine of devils figuratively like you've made. A literal reading of it explains the passages and explains them better.

Also, there are no paragraph breaks in the original or verse numbers, and if you were to reflect on what an old wives fable is, you will see it's the same superstition. Casting charms to keep off devils, etc. Holy water. Church bells. Crosses, warding off devils with the sign of the cross. Much of the excuses for things like false celibacy (not so much for purity but as a ward), abstaining from foods, etc.

None of these things matter to God, and not one of them involves actual devils either. A doctrine of devils.

 

You, Sir, are teaching contrary to the Word of God.

I have shown that Paul was indeed warning of 'a doctrine of devils' when he wrote Timothy. There is no period between verses 1 and 3, the three are connected as one sentence... one thought.

 

I am guessing you are referring to the attributation of Christ's work to Satan, and would just say, that is not what I meant.

But what I meant was this: that which this passage teaches can, I think, be extended to cover all false teaching, in the sense that no truth is a lie.

Who is it that we attribute false doctrine to? Where do we see the source of false doctrine.

Satan.

So my intent was that in my estimation, all false doctrine is demon doctrine.

But, I would say that we have to distinguish between the deceived (who may be deceived due to ignorance [which is a given]) and deceivers, who intentionally propagate false doctrine.

Not sure what you mean here. There are two sins in scripture that should be distinguished:

1)Sin that is inherent in all men that has but one solution...Christ's imputed righteousness through faith in Him.

2)sin that is committed by both saved and unsaved alike.

While the believer positionally stands before God uncondemned, believers do have the responsibility to put away sin. Those who believe that they cannot sin, or do not sin, overlook the instruction given to us concerning our daily conversation.

The thought process that "it is okay to sin because I am saved" is not a genuine, born-again belief for those who have been saved, except for those who are young in Christ. But the Holy Spirit will, as He said, lead us to understand the sin we struggle with on a daily basis, not confusing the SIN Jesus dealt with on the Cross.

I would agree. For the most part, anyway, depending if I am "interpreting" the intent of your post correctly.

Again, those who are saved will be led of the Holy Spirit to a right understanding of the sin in their daily conversation, and will not be license to sin believers.

And here is where my original statement, I think, was misunderstood.

There is a big difference between those who are truly saved and are ignorant, and those who intentionally teach false doctrine.

Satan is the prime example of the latter, while Peter in his rebule of the Lord is the prime example of the former.

Many are confused about particular passages and doctrines, and have come to the wrong conclusion as to what the intent of God was in them, but that does not mean they are confused concerning who is LOrd, and by Whom they are saved.

While I believe that even those who are saved may be led away by both, I think where both originate can be traced to the same source.

But, I will say this: I do not believe that those who are truly saved will be left in a state of deception if they are earnestly seeking the truth, and allowing God to instruct them.

They too, will be brought to the truth. However, the sad fact of it is, that even among the saved, laziness leaves some in a state of ignorance.

And we should be thankful that we live in a country where we have the right to seek out the truth in freedom. Due to the rise of radical Islam, and the persecution of Christian brothers and sisters around the world, we should be the more thankful for the blessing of having been born citizens of a free country, and have been led to the truth of the gospel.

Chances are, had we been born in another country, you and I would not be on this forum.

I just watched a video-clip about slavery in the Sudan, not to mention articles concerning Christian persecution around the world, and it shows me how blessed I am to be an American citizen.

But even greater still, is to be a child of God.

Sorry for the length...just rambling.

God bless.

 

<b>EVALUTION?</b>

I only read two or three of your direct and personal insults to me.

Since I know what I said was true, I don't feel the need to repeat it.

The intepretation is not private, it is from the Holy Spirit, has been made by a lot of other men, and is true.

Whatever pride you have that is rejecting it, <b>however</b> you are doing so on the inside, is your own sin between you and God. I can not analyze it. However, I am at peace with God, and know these verses better. I've already pointed them out for your benefit or any others that might read it. I don't need to say anything else. You've been corrected. You work it out with God youself. I've already forgiven you, and won't talk to you again.

 

What I said remains true. A doctrine of devils means believing fairy tales about powers they never had, which is what the chapter when read completely and not quoted out of context says. Such things are rampant in many churches, such as holy water, etc, and has been critized as such for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Two other points - You sir is an insult that presumes that by being falsely polite, you can be more insulting. You don't know me, don't really mean to be polite by using sir, and this type of manner is abominable to the Lord.

I don't plan to correct you any more. You've driven off anyone that would innocently believe anything you said a long time ago from this forum, from churches, etc. The churches are apostate, and God is judging the world. He's here. End of story. You should repent of any sins you have remaining, including those I can see here.

 

Hi. I will read your post and may comment on it later. I was steamed at the attacks I received earlier. If they read this, they may flatter, but still won't change, and I could care less at this point. God is here. The wicked are being judged, and hopefully they will repent.

I agree with you about other countries. Things are a lot worse than people are actually saying about our spiritual state, and we as a country ought to repent. If all the world is having disaster, does America really think it won't?

The point I was trying to make about the doctrine of devils and old wives tales is historically, these verses have been used to point out superstitution using the bible, and a lot of what has been in churches that has involved false doctrine has revolved around exactly that - like using holy water, crosses, bells, or the sign of the cross to chase away devils. People were killed over saying so - the doctrine of devils has teeth apparently among those who promote it.

God will answer prayers about that - but a physical object having such a power is by it's nature superstitious. It gives an inanimate object power, and it takes away from the glory of God. God is absolute sovereign. Job did not think otherwise, and even satan had to ask permission from God to do anything. Worse is the reprobate ideas about charms, repetive prayers, rosary beads, or however a person expresses the idea that things or their own actions have power over devils that they do not have, or devils have powers they do not have. Our society used to be very superstitutious about the power of devils, and it still is.

You can tell - Because if I say "old wives tales about charms" and "the doctrine of devils about charms" is saying the same thing, look at how many will scream.

Ezekiel saw the detestiable things they did in the hidden chambers in Jerusalem. I see it too. The reason that the doctrine of devils is being promoted as something else is to make devils out as doing things they can not do. It promotes devil worship and goes hand in hand with the new age books in the bookstores. They believe in the doctrine of devils.

 

You haven't corrected me at all. You have only insinuated that I was wrong.

But since the Word of God tells us that forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats IS a doctrine of devils, your claim that a doctrine of devils is a fairy tale is nothing more than denying what the Word of God says concerning the doctrine of devils.

And for the record, I have not spoken anything that is abominable. I suggest you cease with your slandering my character.

And another thing... the Church I attend is not apostate. I suggest you stop believing Harold Camping.

 

A question: why would a truly saved person stay involved with a group that is not abiding in the vine? If a man portrays himself as a believer on Christ Jesus but does not abide in the doctrines of Christ, teaching the traditions of men or yet even the doctrines of devils; that man is a deceiver. And as the Scripture says (2 Tim 3:13) "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." There can be no doubt among those who have the Spirit of God that these things are quite relevant and yet those who are deceived are continuing to be deceived even further from the truth that is in Christ Jesus. To say that demons don't exist contradicts the Scripture. To say that demons have not spread heresy throughout the Church is a denial of truth. The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father; came as the atoning sacrifice(the Lamb of God) for the sins of the world and He came to destroy the works of the wicked one, Lucifer: the Lord rebuke him. Yes, doctrines of demons exist and some of them where foretold in the Scripture being mentioned in this thread. But the false doctrines have not ceased and each generation is more inclined to believe the next lie because of the former lies.....the conscience being slowly seared by the acceptance of those things the devil has offered to the believer. The lie is sin and caused the sin of Adam. Christ Jesus destroyed those works on the tree of Calvary. We don't have to be a party to them any more than we have to be joined to our old sin again. My question is of great importance in these times we are in. Would you knowingly support a group(church) that has given itself to be apostate in it's teachings? Would you knowingly stay with a group(church) which never was on solid ground from it's inception. My friends and brethren, the Apostle Paul warned the first century Church to beware of the false teaching and to mark them who would teach contrary to the doctrine which they had received of the Apostle(s). Not only mark them, but have nothing to do with them. Yes, we live in the last days. Our justification and sanctification is found in the Lord Jesus Christ, in fact; our lives are hid in Him and we are waiting for the day when we see Him. That is our hope and our prayer is " Even so, come Lord Jesus" What is the solution? Abide in the Vine!(John 15) No man shall be redeemed except he abides in the vine! James had a solution, or should i say the Holy Ghost did: Draw close to God. There is only one altar at which you can lawfully bow my brother. It is the altar of God and it has been placed within you if you really do have the Spirit of God. We bow before Jesus the Son of God at this altar. But first your heart has to be circumcised before the altar can be placed there. God's altar shall not sit on unholy ground or in an unholy heart. Now I would ask another question, where is your allegiance? You say you love God and serve the Lord Jesus, then why don't you begin knocking down the altars of baal that are all around us. How is it that a whole generation can proclaim the gospel of Christ and disregard the pagan altars that have been set up in the camp? Is there any zeal for the things of Christ today? Or is everything going to turn out to be lip service. Many of today's denominational churches are completely apostate, have set up idols and altars to worship the god of this world- the god of emotion and feeling good in their sin. I tell you and the Spirit of God will tell you, that the god of this world is satan(lucifer) and if a church wants to follow his teachings and ways then get out of it! If you know what is right then do it. We are not living in a day when we have the comfort of thinking we have time to debate such things. No age has ever really had that comfort. To deny the existence of demons is crazy...to debate it is worthless. To win souls is the objective. Let the blind lead the blind... "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."(Rev. 22:17)

 

Really? Oh - I see. There are no mitigating factors involved in one's eternal judgment, so YOU can just look at a list of sins/beliefs, and if a person believes a certain way, or acts a certain way contrary to your list, then they are bound for hell. Yep - DHK has spoken and that's IT!

I find your position to be an extremely legalist view of scripture at best, and at worst, arrogantly presumptuous. Using your "method", you must necessarily condemn the mentally retarded and the mentally ill to hell, as well as those who have died never having heard the word of God.

Do you actually believe that YOU - little fallible DHK - can know the mind of God in the matter? ASStounding! The Scriptures do tell us what sins will preclude one from the reward of Heaven, but they give no human the authority to judge others worthy of heaven or hell - that authority belongs to Jesus Christ. Even Paul was sometimes unsure of his own eternal destination, much less that of others. If people here want to rant against a belief, this one seems to me to be a REAL doctrine of demons!

WM