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Featured doctrines of grace ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MB, Jan 3, 2017.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, just that before you bash it, please learn what we realy mean by the terms!
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NO calvinist would see the unsaved/falln as devodi of physical life, just spiritual life, bu tall Christians agree on that!
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    The reason I say that it is not compulsion is because I do not believe God overrides our will in order to make us believe.

    Think of it this way – I tell Jim that we can make water boil without adding heat. Jim does not believe me. I use a vacuum pump and lower the pressure in a jar of water in front of Jim. As the pressure decreases Jim sees the water boiling without adding heat. Did I violate Jim’s will in order to “make” him believe? No. I simply revealed to Jim a law of physics.

    I believe that the gospel is the power of God to salvation. I do not believe that this means they are words to believe in order to be saved, but that literally the gospel is the power of God to salvation. When God reveals the Truth of the gospel to a man, man believes.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    My understanding is that when God saves one of His own, He enables us to be able to now come to Christ, as the Spirit "disarms" the sin nature enoug to grant us that ability!
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I look at it this way - if something is revealed to you as being true, then you cannot but believe it. I do not believe that God illuminates us to the truth and then we decide whether to believe or not. I believe that God reveals to us the Truth of the gospel, which is the power of God to salvation, and we are transformed by that Truth (we believe).
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I take it step furter, as He also enables me to have the will needed and the mind/heart needed to receive with joy the good news!
     
  7. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    Which means unbelievers have yet to be revealed the truth. It also means their rejection is valid seeing the truth has not been revealed to them. Is it their fault that they reject it? And is it really rejection?
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Of God, yes. Paul makes it clear that condemnation is just because men reject what is revealed. This is a legitimate rejection. In fact, when Paul states this as true, he does so in the exact context you provide here.
     
  9. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    I'm trying to follow through your statement below. Not sure if its me or you are contradicting yourself.

    Here;
    If one cannot but believe what is revealed as being true, then the ones who don't believe have yet to receive revelation, else they'd have long believed,right?

    And if they have yet to receive revelation, they can't be condemned for rejecting it


    So a sinner on judgement day charged with rejecting revelation can in his defense claim he did not receive none. He has an 'excuse'. Am I making sense, or am I misrepresenting your statement?
     
    #69 Agent47, Jan 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  10. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I believe that we have a general revelation - that is, God, his attributes, nature, and even the Godhead revealed through creation. It is a rebellion against this knowledge that Paul says condemns us. We know to do right, but we do wrong (even if we consider it our own standard).

    I do not mean that God reveals the Truth of the gospel to every man. But in John 3 Jesus tells us that this gospel has come to people already condemned for the purpose of saving those who believe. There is no hint of obligation on the part of God. Nor is it necessary for the lost to reject the gospel message in order to be condemned....as Jesus said, they are condemned already.
     
  11. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    Thank you for clarification.

    Permit me to probe further. There is either rejection or acceptance of general revelation. Rejecting it damns.

    What about accepting it? Is the Totally Depraved soul capable of accepting it? And if he does,would it save, or is it sufficient to deliver him from condemnation, or must it be complemented by particular revelation (Gospel)?

    I ask because very few pre-calvary knew about the Gospel,and post-calvary, many, in fact majority still perish minus particular revelation of the gospel meaning all they possess is the general revelation.

    Sorry if I'm digressing, please let me know.

    Ok.
    Before the Gospel, man is already condemned, general revelation notwithstanding.

    I take it in the above excerpt of your post you mean(t) that recipients of particular revelation (gospel) as opposed to general revelation, cannot but believe it,right?
     
    #71 Agent47, Jan 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  12. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    Recall you mentioned transformation that makes our drawing certain, and before which we were enemies of God opposed to Him. What exactly is transformed, and is it the sinner's will/wish for this transformation?

    I'm sorry but the analogy is flawed. You spoke of God inducing transformation not revelation(new information).

    Even on this belief, we still go back to why the power of God unto salvation is not effectual in some.

    All of us are objects of wrath,enemies of God then suddenly (or gradually) some want nothing but God while the rest remain enemies. What happened?

    They did not hear and believe words...they received power of God. So the rest didn't. Their hitherto rebellious will now turn to God. Their wills are subdued,overridden, all options but one are removed, they can't but follow Christ
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Nature shows to all of us that there is a God, who is powerful and a Creator, but it still takes the special revlation of God in Christ via the Holy Spirit in order to hae a sinner become now a saint!
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sinners will not accept Jesus apart from the work of the Holy Spiit to grant them ears to hear/eyes to see Christ!
    All who are lost have chosen to reject the offer of God freely...
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    No, but I'm getting old. Show me by quoting where I said that transformation makes our drawing certain.
    Ultimately, we are. We are being changed, sanctified, moving from glory to glory (that's about all the Scripture I can come up with right now...we are getting ready to leave). And yes, I think that we all long for the realization of the hope we have in Christ (Paul says it is when we are transformed into His image).
    By revelation I do not mean a new special revelation by God. I mean God's revealing of Truth (that type of personal revelation....it is new to us).
    Well, I don't think it was men doing self-help methods, so I'll choose the work of God in our lives. Or as Paul said "not I but Christ".
     
  16. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I do not totally agree with this because I believe people can suppress the truth :)

    Both Spiritual and natural truth. I do believe humbling oneself to Truth is exactly why Christ says "believe" as the response to the Gospel. You must surrender your will to the Truth being spoken and agree with it. There is no room for pride when someone believes that we are sinners in desperate need of a Savior, and we can do nothing to save ourselves.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is thework of the Holy Spiri, to show to us we are sinners, needng Jesus, and He enables us to receive Him thru faith.
     
  18. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Right, and Truth can be Suppressed, as opposed to embraced :)
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I agree that we must surrender, but that we do is a work of God.
     
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Total Depravity means as bad as could be. That's why they use the word "TOTAL"?

    Maybe you just believe in Partial Depravity?


    If God "let go" we would all be dead in seconds. I could put some vids of James White telling us this.

    We can hear from others;
    "Our rebellion against God is total." -Piper
    "In his total rebellion everything man does is sin."-Piper
    "Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total."- piper

    "We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will will ever be constrained toward Christ.” -- Spurgeon

    "The Bible teaches the total depravity of the human race. Total depravity means radical corruption. We must be careful to note the difference between total depravity and "utter" depravity. To be utterly depraved is to be as wicked as one could possibly be. Hitler was extremely depraved, but he could have been worse than he was. I am sinner. Yet I could sin more often and more severely than I actually do. I am not utterly depraved, but I am totally depraved. For total depravity means that I and everyone else are
    depraved or corrupt in the totality of our being. There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin. Our minds, our wills, and our bodies are affected by evil. We speak sinful words, do sinful deeds, have impure thoughts. Our very bodies suffer from the ravages of sin." -Sproul



    You might be trying to say what Sproul is saying.

    But really post God's current grace.


    Find someone totally separated from God and its guaranteed "utterly" evil let alone totally.

    And then there is preconceived ideas what evil course vs "intelligent" evil course.

    For example the Devil isn't suicidal and apathetic. He still "cares" to have a beef with God.

    Even a sadist is well too "entertained" by existence.

    A lot of evil if not all is just immaturity.
     
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