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Does a 501c = State control

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Salty, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Many churches refuse to be incorporated and/or accept a 501c certificate.

    If you do so - does that mean that your church has been put under control of the Federal/State govt.

    For Example - Here in NY - a church must have between 3 and 18 trustees - in multiples of three, with each trustee having a three year term.

    Click here for link:

    Open for discussion
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That link speaks to religious corporations not churches that have not filed 501c3. Churches do not have to file 501c3 to be tax exempt or to be recognized as a church. Churches can actually file for other 501c organizations like a 4 and some others. Churches can loose their 501c3 letter but in the end it does not change tax exempt status. It does take away their corporate protections.
     
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Do you see govt control when they require a certain number of trustees, ect?
     
  4. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    My bottom line: Those requirements, ect -don't bother me - as long as what they require
    me to do does not violate Scripture. ie - if the govt required our church building to
    be used for a hom0seyal "wedding".

    Would this phrase come into play: Give the govt an inch, and they will take a mile.?
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    When you file for corporate protections you are going to get some government requirements.
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Two very different things. And there is no "certificate."

    Title 26 Section 501c3 has to do with the non-taxable status of a church as stated in 508c1a. It has nothing to do with a church being incorporated, which is a function of state law, not federal law and not the IRS code. In fact the non-taxable status frees the church from government control as the ruling of McCulloch v. Maryland, back in 1819 when Chief Justice John Marshall stated "the power to tax involves the power to destroy." Making churches non-taxable is one way the 1st Amendment is applied forbidding the establishment of a national religion and insuring the free exercise of religion.

    State laws differ regarding both incorporation and taxability under state tax laws. 501c3 only addresses federal taxation.

    Each state differs. Some states are more intrusive than others. (New York being an example of very intrusive incorporation laws.) What incorporation under states laws does is protect the members from losing their homes, savings, etc. in the event the church is sued. Treating the church as a fictitious person (which is what incorporation does) allows the property of the members not be put at risk as would happen if the church were not incorporated.

    So, 501c3 does not grant anything. Non-taxable status of churches is automatic under 508c1a. You don't have to apply for it or fill out any forms. It is automatic. And, additionally, USC Title 26 treats all churches as if they are incorporated under state law regardless if they are or are not incorporated.

    The whole 501c3/incorporation issue is nonsense. It is trumpeted by people who have little or no knowledge of the USC or State incorporation laws.

    As 501c3 is automatic it is a non-starter for discussion purposes.

    Incorporation under state law is another issue depending on how intrusive state law is where the church is. In my opinion a church that refuses to incorporate because of "being under the headship of the government instead of under Christ" is nonsense. The government is also under the Headship of Christ. "The powers that be are ordained of God." And an unincorporated church puts the assets, including the homes, of its members at risk in the event of a law suit against the church. Without incorporation every asset of every member is at risk.
     
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I believe unincorporated churches are treated as general partnerships for purposes of assigning liability in lawsuits. In a general partnership, each partner has joint liability.
     
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  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Indianapolis Baptist Temple states it voluntarily gave up its 501 c.
    In addition, on 13 Feb 2001 the Feds sized their building due to taxes not be paid.

    Click here for link
     
  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    The only part I find offensive is political restriction.
     
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  10. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    They were seized for not paying payroll taxes. A 501 c3 would not have removed their obligation to pay payroll taxes.
     
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  11. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    They are not the first to play and lose the "we're not the government's agents" game.
     
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  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, as Reynolds pointed out, above, the Supreme Court cleared the way for the seizure of Baptist Temple assets because they had not withheld federal income and Social Security taxes from its employees' paychecks since 1984 and owed the IRS millions in back income and SS taxes.

    It had nothing to do with 501c3 or the so-called voluntary giving up its 501c3 status. The church income was not, and never was, subject to federal income taxes. But monies paid to private individuals are subject to withholding and SS taxes. They broke the law and paid dearly for it.

    I also agree with Reynolds about supposed restriction on political restrictions.
     
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