Does "all" mean "all"?

Just stayin' on topic!

 

Just stayin' on topic!

I was on topic: Does "all" mean "all," as the subject header asks? Or, as someone else in the thread asserted, does "world" mean "the whole surface of the globe"?

Well, Luke 2:1 uses both words. Are you going to deal with my question or make another flip dismissal?

When Luke 2:1 says that Augustus decreed that all the world should be taxed, did that include Japanese, Eskimos, Aborigines and other peoples that as yet were unknown to Western civilization? Yes or no?

 

Thank you for proving my point, Helen. Context determines scope. Contra the assertions made in this thread and elsewhere, "all" does not necessarily mean "every single one without exception," nor does "world" mean "the entire surface of the globe.

Therefore, contra those same assertions, there is no reason to believe that when the Bible says Jesus died for the sins of all or of the world, it means "every single person without exception" or "everyone on the surface of the globe. Context determines scope.

 

I have been reading this thread with some interest and thought to put in some clarification of some of the doctrine (as I understand it).

First of all, I saw the idea that man by faith believes God and trusts in Jesus for salvation. This is basically true, but the message I saw this in seems to be saying that that faith is not given to man by God but is within man. This is an incorrect understanding though as I read Ephesians 2:8,9

quote:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Therefore, I believe that the faith which enables man to come to salvation is given to man by God.

Another poster seemed to indicate that the soul does not die but continues on. This depends on your understanding of death. Death in my understanding of how it is used denotes a separation. Physical death is the separation of the physical body from physical life. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God who is the source of spiritual life. In this context surely the soul does die and that dead soul continues on in hell, eternally separated from life with God.

Now for my take on the matter, as I understand scripture.

In Romans 3:10-11 we read:
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

IF there are none that seek after God,how can one argue that man can, of his own accord, come to God? Isn't it pretty clear that no man will seek God unless God first do a work in that man to cause him to do what he would never do himself?

The invitation is indeed to all men, and we are commanded to take the gospel to every creature, but that does not mean that all men will respond and receive salvation. We must take the gospel to the whole world because we do not know who God will call and who he will not.

At this point you may say that if God does the selecting of who he will draw and who he will not, then how can you blame man for not coming to God? I would turn that question around though to say that it is man's own responsibility to do that which he will not do on his own. It is God's grace that will save some of us despite ourselves.

Christ's atonement is certainly sufficient to cover the sins of the world should the world come to Him in faith. That they won't come to Him does not limit the power of his atonement, but does limit the effectiveness of it to the elect of God.

Dave

 

Therefore, I believe that the faith which enables man to come to salvation is given to man by God.</font>[/QUOTE]God has no FAITH to give to man.

Do you think that God is so limited that he should need to have FAITH? If he has no Faith in Him, how can He give Faith to man? What need does he have of faith? Who does God need to have faith in? What is it that God cannot see? God does not give faith to man. No, Dave, you have misunderstood Ephesians 2:8,9! The Correct reading of that scripture is, Paraphrased "For while God's Grace prevails ye are saved through your faith, and that not of yourselves, Salvation is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." All through the scriptures it is Salvation that is the Gift of God. It is God's prevailing Grace that enables man to come to faith. "Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God...another Gift from God is his Word, and Jesus is the living Word of God. Therefore, FAITH is a strictly human condition that God requires of man for man to be saved.

God's Grace is not a commodity that is given from one being to another being in the manner that candy is given from one to another. Grace is a behavioral attribute of the one possessing it. Please research the definitions of these terms. Your understanding depends on it.

What about Abraham? What about Noah? etc. Were they supermen? No, they were men who believed in God, that is, had faith. God found their faith pleasing, and blessed them. You will note that Hebrews 11:2 where it talks of "their faith", not God's faith. Paul was writing about Romans to Romans. Remember the Romans were dominating the "known world" and Paul was observing their behavior. We are seeing some of that same behavior in America and if you changed the name of the book to Americans 3:10-11 the text would be accurate for America as it was for the Romans. However, it is not accurate for All men, else no man among gentiles would believe. Who would have faith in a Jewish God?

Furthermore, to put man down as you are so eager to do, is to deny God's descriptions how He made man, what he endowed man with, etc. My god don't make no junk!

Good observation, except that God takes all who respond to the Word in Faith. He is not running all over the earth saying You're elect, you're not, you're elect, you're not, You're not, you are, etc. Anyone out of all who hears the word and believes is accepted by God! Jesus said so!

God also said that His word sent forth does not return void. Seems to me, it is the Word that does the work and God reaps the result of the Word's work.

NOT TRUE! The Atonement covers the sins of the world, regardless of who responds to the Gospel! There is nothing of man that in any way limits the effectiveness of the Atonement. What the atonement did is remove the penalty of Sin from man. That is a finished accomplishment of God! Now it is that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Atonement was never intended by God to remove sin from mankind, but rather to remove the penalty for sin from man so that man could have life. Without atonement ALL man would Die the second death, even "the elect", because ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. If the penalty of sin still applied to man, NO MAN would be spared from Death (the second death). The atonement effectively removed sin from the SALVATION Equation, so that all men who hear the word, come to faith in Jesus, shall be saved.

 

In order to understand that "All really means ALL' one must assume the author's or speaker's perspective. ALL always means ALL to the one speaking the word. It is up to the reader or hearer to understand the author or speaker's intent. In matters little what Augustus decreed, and it does not contribute to the discussion!

 

Otherwise known as "proof by 'Yelsew doesn't care.'"

 

Helen asked:

Ok, would you please look at Romans 11:32 and tell me if 'all' in the first part of the sentence means the same thing as 'all' in the second part of the sentence?

Can you give us a good reason to think Paul changed his mind halfway through?

The obvious antecedent to "all" and "all men" is "Israel" up in verse 26; hence "all" means "all Israel" in both cases.

 

How can you say that I don't care? If I didn't, I wouldn't be toleratin' you!

 

Helen said:

Sorry, Ransom, but you are ignoring the verse immediately before that one. And the verse ....let's start in 30

No, let's start a little farther back. Context you want, context you get. The context is Paul's discussion of the future of Israel, specifically that their present rejection is not final. Paul writes:

You = Paul's addressees, the Romans. "Israel" and "the Gentiles" are addressed in the third person.

Three verses speak specifically about the salvation of Israel.

Now Paul addresses the Romans again:

Who is "they" in these verses? Paul is speaking of Israel. Israel is the enemy of God. But God loves Israel for the sake of Israel's forefathers.

"They" still refers to Israel. Paul hasn't changed the subject. "They also may receive mercy" - God has not cast off the Israelites completely. And verse 32 follows directly on its heels:

Whom did Paul just say would receive mercy in verse 31? Israel! Why would Israel need mercy? Because God has consigned them to disobedience.

"All men" in Romans 11:32 is all men of Israel. The language is plain, and the antecedent of "all men" is "Israel" of verse 26, as I said earlier. Verse 32 can only refer to all men of all kinds if Paul suddenly changes the subject with no indication whatsoever, and I see no evidence of that.

 

Yelsew, if God made man (and everything else that exists or ever did exist) how can you argue that man has ANYTHING that wasn't given to him by God?

If you state that my understanding of the Ephesians 2:8,9 is incorrect, because God has no faith to give to man, I would be interested in the following:

1) What do you base this statement (that God has no faith to give to man) on? Which scriptures support this statement?

2) How do you arrive at your paraphrase of Ephesians 2:8,9? Is this by staight interpretation of the Greek? By comparing scripture with scripture?

To my way of thinking, it is you who are putting limits on God by saying he has no faith to give to man. While I agree that God certainly does not need to have faith in anything outside of himself, it does not mean that he does not have the ability to give faith to man from his infinite storehouse. Remember that God is the giver of every good and perfect gift.

I agree that God's grace is not a commodity to be given to one being by another. It is the freely given, favor that God bestows on undeserving man.

Salvation is indeed the gift of God. It is not however, the only gift that God gives to man. Everything that we have is something that is given to us by God. Do you have intellect? Did you create that in yourself or was it given to you? Are you able to do a job? Where did that ability come from? You went to school, studied? Who gave you the ability to learn? All things have their source in God. Even the life we live on this earth is by the grace of God. A gift. The wages of sin is death. We have all sinned. We all deserve death. We are all alive. Isn't that a result of God's grace and longsuffering patience with us?

Abraham and Noah were not supermen, but they were recipients of God's grace. Why do some hearts hear the word and reject it, while others embrace it? Isn't it because one person's heart is hard and another's is ready to receive the word? Who prepared it to receive the word? Did the person prepare his own heart to receive that which he didn't even know was coming? How can this be?

God prepares the heart, we plant the seed by witnessing or preaching the word, another may water, God brings the increase. This is clearly laid out in scripture.

My contention does not limit God, it simply calls man what he is, a creature that is born under sin with no hope of escape except that the grace of God is given to him and he comes to faith and trust in Jesus.

I never said that God goes around saying "You're elect, you're not", I simply stated that God does not provide his special grace to all men. God hardened Pharoahs heart through unbelief. As Paul says in Romans, if he made 1 vessel to honor and 1 vessel to dishonor what is that to you? Shall the thing made say to his maker "why did you make me thus?"?

If as you state, the penalty for sin is removed for ALL men, then ALL men must go to heaven because the second death is the penalty for sin. My contention is the the atonement is effective for those who believe, the rest die in their sins and suffer the penalty for their sins, which is eternity in hell.

The Bible is clear that everyone is not saved. There will be a number beyond counting that are saved, but many more will not be. If the Atonement removed the penalty from all men, then this could not be because the penalty would have already been paid for EVERYONE. This cannot be so.

 

Some further thoughts on "does all mean all."

God has no faith, huh?

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ…

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

How in the world can someone have faith if God doesn’t give it to him? I base my view on Paul’s statement in Romans about some are chosen for noble use (vessels of mercy), some chosen for ignoble use (vessels of wrath). God has mercy on whom He will have mercy and HARDENS WHOM HE WILL HARDEN. This is His sovereign right to do so. This claypot isn’t going to talk back to the Potter on this important point. It is clear to ME that some are not given the kind of faith that causes one to believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ. But that does NOT nullify His finished work. Dead men (spiritually dead) can’t have faith. It is God who makes alive by His sovereign will. This is GOD’S FAITH IN ACTION.
“For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make THE FAITH OF GOD without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;...” (Romans 3:3-4a)

It is apparent that some do not believe. But does this mean that makes God's faith in Himself to carry out His plan and purposes for mankind can be thwarted by man's unbelief (He is all-powerful)? He has purposed BY THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL to redeem, restore and reconcile ALL creation to Himself through Christ. Can we REALLY DO ANYTHING to thwart that plan?

May our Gracious Father God of infinite kindness lead you into ever-expanding dimensions of the height, depth, width, and length of His never-failing love... (Eph.3:14-21)

 

For those who are interested in studying does all mean all here's a site that may be helpful to you:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univ3.html

Here's an excerpt:

God the Creator of Men

1. God is the Creator of all men. "He hath made of one blood, all nations of men, to dwell on all the face of the earth." (Acts 17:26) He would not have created intelligent beings, had he known they were to be forever miserable. To suppose that God would bring beings into existence who he knew would be infinite losers by that existence, is to charge him with the utmost malignity. The existence itself would not be a blessing, but a curse; the greatness of which cannot be described. A poor soul, sentenced to endless damnation, might well cry, in the touching language of Young;

"Father of Mercies, why for silent earth,
Didst Thou awake, and curse me into birth?
Tear me from quiet, ravish me from night,
And make a thankless present of thy light;
Push into being a reverse of Thee,
And animate a clod with misery?"

As God is infinite in knowledge, and as he sees the end from the beginning, he must have known before the creation, the result of the existence he was about to confer, and whether, upon the whole, it would be a blessing; and, as he was not under any necessity to create man, being also infinitely benevolent, he could not have conferred an existence that he knew would end in the worst possible consequences to his creatures.


God the Father of Men

2. God is the Father of all men. "Have we not ALL one Father? Hath not one God created us?" (Mal. 2:10) A kind Father will not punish his children but for their good. God is evidently called the Father of all men in the Scriptures, and this is not an unmeaning name. He has the disposition and principles of a Father. He loves with a Father's love. He watches with a Father's care. He reproves with a Father's tenderness. He punishes with a Father's design. God is the Father of all men and, therefore, he cannot make mankind endlessly miserable.

 

First some definition of terms is in order.

Faith: From the bible, [Heb 11:1] Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
and from the dictionary,

So, what in God leads you to think that even one of these definitions apply to divine Spirit?

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. So what does God hope for? Do you think that Almighty God sits on his throne wringing his hands hoping for anything? How does God manifest evidence of what he cannot see? What is it that God cannot see? If you cannot answer these questions with believable facts, then you are compelled to believe that God does not have faith. That which one does not have one cannot give!

I see nothing in any of these definitions of Grace that describes that which is given. However all of these are behavioral relating to the one who has grace.

I included Favor because it is often associated with Grace. Favor it appears is what one "feels" toward another, but like grace favor cannot itself be given by the one who has it. Favor however can be expressed through acts of Grace which is the manner of behavior that the one having grace exhibits toward those who are "favored".

In Ephesians 2:8,9 The only gift contained therein is Salvation. Grace is not given, it is retained by the one possessing it. Faith is not given, it is required of the one who is to be saved. Grace is not a gift, it is a behavioral characteristic of the one possessing it. So you can see that it is quite impossible for God to give Grace, which is a behavioral characteristic or attribute HE possesses that is manifested toward man as a show of His Favor, which is an inward direction "feeling" one has toward the object that brings pleasure. So Ephesians 2:8,9 really says, because God favors man, and behaves toward us graciously, we who have faith in God are given the gift of Salvation though we do not merit it.

God created man in His own image. God is among other things totally self sufficient, For all eternity leading up to the creation God existed, complete in Himself. We are in his image, that must mean that we have the ingredients to "be all that we can be". The mechanics are in place when we are born that enable us to be the best human beings that we can be. Parents are to "bring up their children in the way that they should go and they will not soon depart from it". We go to school to learn how to learn to a higher degree and capacity than our own parents had. We are already equipped for that, but because of sin, we are not complete in that our spirit is separated from God's spirit by the sins we do. WE ARE ALREADY EQUIPPED! God does not hover over us sprinkling a little intelligence here and genius there. That which we have we have had all along in the grace of God!

As for All sinning and deserving of death, True, But Jesus died in our stead so that the sins we do so not result in our death. We however must have faith upon the first death, of the flesh, else we shall face the second death, which is the lake of fire.

All mankind including Adam and Eve live because of God's grace, Not one of them had more grace than God affords to you and I. Why did I receive the Gospel at an early age, while several of my siblings, there were six of us, did not receive the Gospel until mid life? The truth is that we all heard the gospel from our early life, yet I was the only one out of six to believe it while young. I don't know the answer to that, but I'm certainly overjoyed that four more of them have become believers, leaving only my younger brother yet to respond. He'd better do it soon before the rest of us "pile on" and give it to him by force. He has heard the gospel, yet refuses to yield to it.

We agree!

The grace of God is not what saves, it is the faith that comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God that Saves. Hearing is done while God's grace toward mankind prevails, and while the spirit of man resides in the flesh. For once the spirit departs the flesh, there is no more hearing and believing. You either have it or you don't!

There is no "special grace"of God. Hardening of hearts is not a matter of God removing his Grace from some, for Grace is like rain. It falls on the just and unjust alike. So as long as God's grace prevails, there is opportunity for the unbeliever to hear and become a believer.

The penalty for sin is death. Jesus died ONCE, for ALL mankind. He took the Penalty for our sins upon himself, and died so that we do not have to die because of sin. In doing that Jesus enabled Life eternal for all mankind, but said in John 3:16 For god so loved the world, that He God, gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him, the one who died in your place, you shall have everlasting life. Jesus went on in verse 18 and said that those who believe are not judged, that is put to death, but those who do not believe are condemned already by their unbelief. There are two deaths, the one that all flesh experiences, and the second death is the death of unbelieving spirits.

You understanding is flawed because you equate atonement with salvation, but Jesus does not. Atonement enables eternal life for those who have faith in God, because the penalty for sin, which is death, has been removed. So it is strictly a matter of FAITH as to whether or not one has eternal life. Those who do not have faith, even though their sins are atoned for, will be cast into the lake of fire because they lack faith in God, not because they sin. Salvation is a matter of FAITH ALONE! Not faith plus something else.

 

(Rom 3:3 KJV) For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

If God does not have faith how can He be faithful?
How can the Bible speak of the Faithfulness of God if he does not possess Faith?

How could Jesus, God Himself in Human Flesh, walk this earth in human form without faith?

The Truth is - God does possess Faith. Unshakeable and unmoveable Faith in Himself.

 

Hi all,

(Of course I mean a specific all by that)

I was going to write in regards to Yelsew's "God has not faith to give us," but ya'll did a good job.

Okay, I will make one more note — Genesis 1 says God created everything. The Hebrew word this is "bara" which means "out of nothing." Yelsew's contention is that a God without faith can't give faith to me. I would say a God that can create the world out of nothing, can produce faith in me!



For a slightly different picture of the "all means all" debate. Please see the John 3:16-17 discussion.

AOG

 

In the creation, God gave man all that is necessary for man to have human faith. God gave man through His word that which man can believe unto faith. God gave man the promise of everlasting life so that man can have something to hope for. Faith is the substance of that hope.

Did God give man hope, or merely something to hope for?

If God did not give man hope, then where does hope come from? Is it not of man? If hope is of man, then faith which is the substance of things hoped for, must also be of man.

This is not rocket science folks, and there is no reason to accept your hocus pocus phony theology either.

On the seventh Day God rested. Creation did come to a conclusion and it is therefore not an ongoing or continuing process. God does not continue to give to man that which He God requires man to have on his own.

Yet, you want God to keep on giving that which is already yours. You don't want to take the responsibility for hearing the word of God and developing your own faith in the Christ which is the required faith in God. That is a cowardly way to look at it.

God says to man, Have faith and you shall have eternal life which is my gift to you.