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Does Calvanism REALLY Turn God Into A Puppet master us Into puppets?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 2, 2011.

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  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Originally Posted by Winman View Post
    I don't have a problem whatsoever with God sending people who are old enough to understand right from wrong and willingly choose to sin to hell.

    So how would they know better if their sin natures were so overpowering that they could not see clearly? Both Glfred & Allan have just posted that their perceptions are distorted by sin. So if thats true, these sinners are incapable of selecting anything but sin. Therefore you by your claim are justifying their going to hell. And if everyone has the same sin nature, chances are everyone is going to hell. Now, is that fair?
     
    #41 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 3, 2011
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes..........
     
    #42 InTheLight, Jun 3, 2011
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    jesus death uon the Cross was a propiation in full for the whole World, but its effectual basis is applied ONLY to those who will do his requirement to appropiate for themselves... those who palce their faith and trust in jesus Christ, and in him alone...

    Problem here is that NO ONE can come to jesus on their own, as weare ALL like sheep gone astry from the Shepherd of our souls...

    God has to 'step in" to this situation and enable us to actually be able to respond in faith to His message..

    We say that he does this by individually electing out those whom He chooses to have favor on, to quicken them and enable them to place faith in Christ, and NONE so elected shall fail to do that, ALL whom he chosen to receive Christ shall indeed...

    You would say that God grants "universal grace" to all to have chance to repent and believe in Jesus, but still WE decide to accept jesus or not... Chance All, some. none will become saved...

    still seemds that there is the case of us decidiing our own fates, God did all that He could do, and waits on us to make "right choices!"
     
    #43 JesusFan, Jun 3, 2011
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    JF....are you typing from a Smart Phone?
     
    #44 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 3, 2011
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Wrong....fatalism does & Calvinists are not fatalists.

    Your misrepresentation of Calvinism is stunning.
     
    #45 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 3, 2011
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This post (and the following) by Allan was excellent and should answer your question thoroughly.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1688021&postcount=49
     
    #46 webdog, Jun 3, 2011
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You should qualify this with "most" calvinists :)
     
    #47 webdog, Jun 3, 2011
  8. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Small keyboard for typing, guess fat fingers get in the way!
     
    #48 JesusFan, Jun 3, 2011
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I feel your pain, brother :laugh:

    You will always know which responses from me are done on a phone and which are done on a laptop.
     
    #49 webdog, Jun 3, 2011
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    ONLY Cals who might be considered that would be Hyper ones, dont think any here on Board posting though!

    isn't it interesting that some Arms here have all cals teaching fatalism concerning God, that we make Him out to be a "Monster" because we dare to think that in Ultimate sense His Will will get done in area of salvation...

    YET

    If any of us question them by asking if their theology makes man ultimate determining of their fate...

    Gets shot down as being "just wrong?' We misunderstand Arminianism ,Immediatly?
    if we are assumed wrongf about Arms thinking..

    is it possible they could be wrong about ours?
     
    #50 JesusFan, Jun 3, 2011
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    yep, where is an IPad 7 inch when I need one!
     
    #51 JesusFan, Jun 3, 2011
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The non-cal, non-arm believes this same thing!
     
    #52 webdog, Jun 3, 2011
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Fan;
    Actually Calvinism turns God into a puppet master and leaves the people dependant on the fate of particular election.
    MB
     
    #53 MB, Jun 3, 2011
  14. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    So then You are saying that any of us to be totally dependent upon the Will and desires getting done by God, who is rightous and just in ALL of His dealings and Decisions, is a bad thing?
     
    #54 JesusFan, Jun 3, 2011
  15. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    EWF...

    I was an enemy of God for 25 years. I understand completly.

    Again, that is the norm. Why do you think that is something unique to Calvinism?

    There are some things in calvinism that are true. I am in complete agreement with calvinisms veiw of complete eternal security.

    But calvinisn is waaay off in other areas

    Such as this crazy idea that God is controling people like robots, or pieces on a chess board, with the free will of the people non-existant. Or this idea that people do not "choose" to recieve Christ, or that in eternity past God decided to damn millions of human beings to hell simply because he chose to.

    All through the scriptures we see God giving people choices and options, with the blessings or problems coming to them accordingly.

    And that includes people resisting Christ, or embracing Him.
     
    #55 Alive in Christ, Jun 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2011
  16. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Thing on this is that I do NOT see God as simply "choosing " to dump of humans into hell, because he delights in seeing them spending an Eternity suffering...

    instead, God provided the atonment/provision for Him to be able to intervene into a race of Humans who ALL were deserving of hell, ALL were sinful creatures who rebel against God in thoughts and deeds daily...

    He could have decided to let us ALL go there, But chose to allowing for some to be redeemed, and to spend eternity in his presense...

    Look at it this way...

    those who are not the Elect, and ONLY God knows who they are, will never worry about their spiritual standing before God any ways, as dead to God, being totally depraived...

    Those of us worried about those things should be rejoicing, as pretty good sign that we are elected by/of God, as we are trying to make sure that we are ones to place faith in jesus Christ!
     
    #56 JesusFan, Jun 3, 2011
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    #57 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 3, 2011
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I have.....most Calvinists do not take it to fatalistic ends. Even the 1689 puts a stop to that thinking. To become a fatalist, you'd have to believe that people have absolutely no freedom & that God ultimately is the author of Evil. I do not know one Calvinist that would cop to that.
     
    #58 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2011
  19. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Let me ask a question of us all. Were you saved against your will?. Did God drag you kicking and screaming into the kingdom of Heaven? Are you now saved, but wish you weren't?

    The answer to the "puppetmaster" question will be found in our own salvation experience.
     
    #59 Tom Butler, Jun 3, 2011
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    How many times do you need to be told that people are not robots in Calvinism, but you continue to try to drive home a point that isnt there. I then told you I didnt choose to receive Christ, but you deny that also. Third, God did not damn anyone......men through their sin nature damned themselves. God showed mercy to whomever He chose to save.....because he did not have to save anybody, we could all have rotted in hell. You should be on your hands & knees thanking Him rather than attacking Him. Im sorry, your like the guy who works a full day in the field & gets paid the same as the guy who comes in to work a half day. Of course its not fair to your way of thinking but then again your not the boss, the Almighty Creator of the Universe has reign over what He will do......you however stand there & claim that He is unfair. :laugh:

    Bro, you keep your Arminian, Weslyian, Non-Cal, No Cal, Low Cal, Semi Pelagian, Pelagian what ever thoughts & ideas to yourself thank you & may God help you....I will have none of it!

    Done with this conversation.
     
    #60 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 3, 2011
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