Featured Does Denying Original Sin mean Denying the Cross?

Oh, without a doubt Paul thought he was doing God service when he persecuted the church. What does that have to do with Romans 7?

Paul said he was alive without the law once. Now if you read, he tells us WHEN he was without the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Paul is describing that time he learned the law. For Jewish men, this is about the time they become a teen, the time of their Bar Mitzvah. Bar Mitzvah literally translates to "son of commandment". This is when he learned the law. This is when Paul learned what lust is, when he learned the meaning of "Thou shalt not covet".

It was this knowledge that made him accountable for his actions, and therefore convicted him as a sinner. This is when he spiritually died.

The scriptures show that very young persons who did not know the law were not accountable.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God did not allow the Jews who rebelled against God in the wilderness to enter the promised land. But God did allow their children who had no knowledge between good and evil to enter in. Now, many of these young people probably participated in doing wrong, but they were not held accountable because they did not fully understand their actions.

By the way, the promised land is a figure of heaven, this scripture argues that little children who die all go to heaven.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This scripture shows little children do not at first know to refuse evil and choose good.

This verse also refutes Total Inability, as it shows that even children can refuse evil and CHOOSE GOOD. :thumbsup:

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Here God speaks to Jonah. Jonah was not happy when the people of Nineveh repented, probably because he was a Jewish bigot. God asks him if he is angry for a gourd that he did not labor over or cause to grow.

Then God asks Jonah "and SHOULD NOT I spare Nineveh?" God was asking Jonah if it were JUST to spare Nineveh. Why? Because there were 120,000 little children there who could not tell between their right hand and their left hand, and much cattle also.

These little children were innocent of their parents sin, because they were too young to understand between good and evil. This is why God argued to Jonah that he SHOULD spare Nineveh. These children were no more guilty than the cattle that also cannot understand sin.

So, the scriptures show little children are not guilty of sin until they reach a stage of maturity and understand between good and evil. This is the age of accountability, and exactly what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7.

If Paul wanted to tell us he "mistakenly" believed he was alive but was not, he could have easily said so. The Holy Spirit is not unable to express himself properly as some here laughingly argue.

No, Paul knew exactly what he was saying. Before he learned the law he was spiritually alive, but when the commandment came, sin revived and HE DIED. This is when he spiritually died.

Now, he may not have understood this until after he was saved, but that does not change the facts. Until he learned the law he was alive, but after he learned the law he was accountable and spiritually died, whether he was aware of it or not.

 

He's not going to listen to you, or me, or anyone else. John 20:31 directly tells us the book of John was written so people MIGHT believe, but he will deny it.

Of course John was written to believers, but it was written to unbelievers as well. I doubt any other book has brought so many unbelievers to a saving knowledge of Christ as the book of John.

But you are talking to a brick wall, he doesn't listen to anybody. He thinks he already knows everything.

 

Show me where it says who the book is written to.
Just because you can point out one of the major themes of the book doesn't mean that is the recipient of the book. Purpose and recipient are two different things. Who was the book written to?
No book in the NT is written to an unbeliever. You have yet to demonstrate that. Where does it say it was written to the unsaved?

 

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Now you are debating like a Calvinist. It is OBVIOUS this verse is saying the book of John was written to enable unbelievers to believe, and that believing they would have life. That is as plain as the nose on your face.

Give it up dude, you are acting like an immature stubborn teenager. You are not always correct, and sometimes even YOU, yes YOU, can learn something from others.

You are just demonstrating how STUBBORN you are.

 

I am not the one stubborn here.
You are quoting John's purpose in writing.
You could quote the same thing in John 3:16; 5:24; 3:18; 3:36; and in many other scriptures in John. They all lead up to this verse.

However purpose is not the same as recipient. Show me a verse where the recipient of the gospel is an unsaved person or group of persons.

For example, in all of his epistles Paul makes it clear to whom he is writing:

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

No matter what he says in that epistle it is to the saints in Corinth, the saved, the sanctified.
In chapter 15:1-4 he clearly explains the gospel, but it was for them.
In the same chapter he goes in much detail about the resurrection, but it was for them, the saints at Corinth. They are the recipients of the letter even though the gospel is explained in much detail.

 

So if this be the case Winman, Paul and every Jew was convicted of their sins from the time they were teenagers according to your fifth paragraph. Paul was under the conviction of sin when he went about killing Christians, Hog wash.

 

It has nothing to do with feeling conviction at all. It is a matter of fact. When you know the law you become accountable and spiritually die the moment you sin, whether you realize it or not.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You might believe you are in fine standing with God, but if you do not believe on Jesus you are "condemned already". You may not realize it now, but when you stand before God you will be made very aware of it.

Paul is simply explaining how sin kills a person, by using the authority of the law. Yes, Paul believed he could keep the law and it would lead to life, but sin, taking advantage of the law condemned him as a sinner and he spiritually died, whether he understood it or not.

Truth is, if a person perfectly kept the law, he would live. This is what Jesus himself said.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

No man except Jesus has ever kept the commandments perfectly, but if a man did keep the commandments perfectly, he would merit heaven. Folks will object to this, but this is what Jesus said, and Jesus knows doctrine perfectly.

By the way, this refutes Original Sin, because if you are born dead in sin, then you would not enter life even if you perfectly kept the law.

 

Give it up man, it says these are written that ye might believe, and that believing ye might have life.

A believer already has life. So obviously this verse is saying the book of John is written to unbelievers to enable them to believe, and if they believe they will have life.

I am not going to argue with you all night, you are just being obstinate.

You are just making yourself look bad.

 

I did. You reject it. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, it just means your adamantly stubborn -- and wrong.

It isn't "one of the major themes" of the gospel. It is the major theme of the gospel.

Primarily, unbelievers

Because your bias, prejudice and stubbornness won't let you see the truth, don't complain to me.

 

I don't complain. I am perfectly content in what I do and in the peace I have with the Lord, and in the knowledge that he has given me over these many years of ministry.

It is absolutely ludicrous to think that God the Holy Spirit inspired his Word and then addressed it the unsaved, those who he himself describes as "dogs that return to their vomit," "unclean thing whose 'righteousness' are as filthy rags," children of wrath, children of disobedience, whose father is the devil, (the father of lies), "swine" (of whom we are not to cast our pearls--meaning the word of God).

Taking that into consideration you think that some of the books of the Bible were written to these swine and dogs as the Bible speaks of them.

Even though they are unable to understand the book, for "the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God, for they are spiritually discerned," you maintain that it is written to the unsaved.
--A completely illogical position to take.
Why would God write a book to those who he knows cannot understand it?
Your position makes no sense; has no value, contradicts all common sense, as well as the rest of Scripture.

 

The books of the bible were written to the saved as in Rev chapter two and three. Unto the Angel of the church of Ephesus write. Unto the angel of the church in Symrna write. Unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write. Unto the angel of the church in Sardis write. Unto the angel of the church in Philadelphia write. Unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write. As DHK has said, why would the bible be written to the lost when the lost do not comprehend the things of the Spirit of God. Winman for once pony up and admit you are wrong.

 

This is one of my personal disagreements with calvinism (and I rarely get involved with the C vs A debates anymore).

It stems from the best known verse in the NT - known both by believers and non-believers alike.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

I knew exactly what it meant before I was saved (and so did the party-going GI's I hung with) and after I was saved (also while I was in the service).​

It is so simple and sublime that it sometimes infuriates unbelievers.

If God so loved the world wouldn't He give a message to the world that everyone could understand?​

And anyway why do the C camp folks have such a problem with God granting enough understanding to every human to understand John 3:16 and then only giving the force and strength of will to the "elect" to receive Him?​

Or giving a predispostioning to the "elect" to receive Him.

Here is both the human responsibility and the sovereignty of God harmonized.

John 1

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

Why can't we just leave it at that?​

HankD​

 

The lost instinctively know of God and the things of God. The verse you wrest from context is concerning the deep spiritual matters. The Bible was written FOR mankind.

 

Do you understand John 3:16 ? Christ was speaking to a Jew. The Jews considered everyone of any other nation to be dogs. The Lord had to show Peter on the house top not to call anyone of any other nation unclean, what God hath cleansed, that call not thou common, Acts 10:15. Christ was telling Nicodemus in John 3:16 that He had a people that would be out of every nation, people, kindred and tongue, Rev 5:9, Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindred's of the earth be blessed. In John 10:16 Christ said, And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I MUST BRING, and THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

Dear salzer mtn, So? most will not hear, that is true.

But the world is the world (cosmos) and the Spirirt states in this passage that God loves the humanity therein which are the "whosevers" and there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile in John 3:16.


You have your point of view and I have mine and as this is a debate forum the folks will decide on their own.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

You and I have both heard Him and have drank. Let's share it with those who will hear. Yes admitedly many/most will not receive it.​

Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.​

HankD

 

The point of this discussion was never who it was written FOR, that is its purpose. It is obvious that in the gospel's it records a discussion between Nicodemus who is unsaved and Christ. There are invitations to the unsaved.

But the book in general is written TO the saved. They are the ones to whom the Scriptures were entrusted. Holy men of God were inspired of God and wrote what God told them to write, and wrote them for our benefit, not for the benefit of the unsaved. We are to use them when witnessing to the unsaved. It is a handbook and a guidebook and an instruction book for us.
It was not written TO the unsaved though it definitely has application to the unsaved telling them how to be saved. It is our duty to obey the Great Commission and use those scriptures that they might by saved.

The eunuch did not understand what he read.
Philip used what he could not understand and preached unto him Jesus.

 

I agree. Nonetheless before I was saved, I understood John 3:16 (and no doubt I had probably heard it from a saved person) but I understood what it meant and I knew what was expected of me but I refused at first. Later when running from God after deep conviction of sin, I caved.

HankD