Does God Control and/or Know All things? A continuation...

Just google "Westminster Confession." It's a well known and respected Reformed confession of faith and it appears he quoted from it to show that even those of the "Calvinistic" persuasion even affirm an aspect of human liberty while your statements may not appeared to leave room for such.

 

I didn't take the time to read through the thread, but if you notice a violation of the posting rules you can report any post for evaluation. I just happened to enter this discussion to find your comment. Sorry, I know it's not fair. It's kind of like when the ref gives the foul to the guy retaliating.

 

Skan, how is God controlling our thoughts any different from putting them there? If God is controlling our thoughts, then we can only think that which he wills.

P4T has accused me of not answering his questions when I went into great detail of what I believe with supporting scripture in the closed thread. Short term memory loss?

If God is controlling Satan, a person would have to conclude that God is directing war against himself, as God and Satan are at war.

I have answered him in detail several times, but he refuses to answer my question, "Is God directing war against himself?"

He knows the fact that God is at war against Satan refutes his view.

 

I agree. I would add that I think God typically (if not always) does this though normative or outward means. For example, look at the story of Jonah. Certainly God could have just made Jonah want to preach to Nineveh, right? I mean, He had the ability to just "flip a switch" in Jonah's heart and make his desire change, agreed?

But, He didn't. He used circumstances and allowed Jonah to make a decision in the face of overwhelming and convincing evidence of God's power. Same is true of Paul and his road to Damascus experience. Seems to me God does intervene in time and space to assure His appointed messengers deliver His appointed message. The question is: Does this conclusively prove that God likewise causes their listeners to believe the message? In other words, does proof that God uses effectual circumstances to ensure that a messenger is sent to Nineveh conclusively prove that God uses inward irresistible means to make certain individuals in their audience believe?

 

I am glad you have "repented" (had a change of mind) with respect to your theology. For what you have posted above is not what you posted earlier in the day, in the now closed thread. Here is what you said previously.

Quite a difference isn't there?

 

Yes. When man sins, God can certainly turn it for good.

God does not give evil thoughts. Through meditation upon His word, we can transform our minds to think right thoughts. All through the Bible we are instructed to meditate upon His word, to guard our hearts, to take thoughts captive, etc. These admonitions would not be in His word if He took control of our minds, leaving out our free will.

Control as in controlling the wheel, it would be satan or man's free will. God may determine the outcome, but the act itself is controlled by the conductor.

God determines the outcome, man controls the act.

If God supernaturally turns it, God controlled it.

OK

God directs mans thoughts through meditation upon His word. Man is in charge of the meditation which will bring God's direction through His written will.

God didn't control Eve when she took the fruit. She controlled herself. God turned what man controlled and brought about restoration.

Jesus said no-one knows, not even Himself of the day when He will return, but the Father.

To the best of your ability.

OK

The debate comes with the actual meaning of the word "control" and how it is used.

Again, the debate comes from the use of the word "control" and its context.

See this is where contention builds mostly. Because others have a different understanding, you want to charge them with stripping God of who He is. Give others a little credit.

OK, but practice what you preach.

 

The point I was attempting to make is that God's active intervention to ensure Jonah's decision is an exception not the rule. So, for example, to say that God controls Jeffery Dahmer's choice to rape, murder and kill children using the same terminology that you would use in describing his control over Jonah's choice to preach is unfounded. He was actively intervening through outward/normative means in affecting Jonah's choice and in that regard would be "in control." There is nothing to suggest that He was actively intervening in this manner with Dahmer's choices, so is it accurate to say his is equally "in control" over Dahmer's choices?

Certainly, you could say he knew about Dahmer's choices and permitted them to occur, but that is different from what he did with Jonah. This is the difference between God's active and permissive will. To simply say God is "in control" can have different connotations and cause confusion, because God is not "in control" in the same manner in these different circumstances.

 

Read chapter 10 of Daniel. In vs. 5 a man appears to him whom he calls "my lord" in vs 17. But this man was withstood by the prince of the kingdom of Persia 21 days.

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Whether this was the Lord, or simply one of his angels, this person was prevented from coming to Daniel for 21 days and needed "help" from Michael whom most believe one of the most powerful archangels. I absolutely believe God will always be victorious over Satan, but that does not mean he is not a competent and powerful foe.

And then he returns to fight this prince of Persia.

Dan 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I am come to thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and lo when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia will come.

Satan isn't following God's orders, he is fighting against God.

So, is God directing Satan to fight against himself?

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Good post. :thumbs:

 

I publicly repent of my superman comments. Sorry p4t.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

You are a bigger man than I. Blessings