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Does God ever change

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, May 24, 2019.

  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    This is a sub-OP from another thread - as the discussion was getting off OP.

    This was my question (post # 20) from this thread
    1) What is the scriptural reference that God was against incest from the very beginning ?

    2) Were Abram and Sara guilty of incest since they were half-siblings

    3)
    a. If Cains wife was not his sister - then how did she appear - -
    b. If she had been created separately - then would she also have been tempered by the
    the devil -to loose her sinless condition?
    c. and since Eve was created from Adams Rib- was she not then part of Adams DNA - and
    thus did they commit incest?

    and robycop3 answered

    A quick look - shows that most - if not all States/commonwealths find that incest with a half-sibling is illegal.

    RC states in post 21 that " God doesn't change"
    OR
    does he????

    In the OT - God commanded the Children of Israel to be circumcised (wait- that was a change - as Adam and the next dozen or generations were not commanded to be circumcised. And in the NT - there is not requirement to be circumcisee- so - God changed twice.

    In the OT - someone who committed adultery was to be stoned.
    In the NT - Jesus said to go and sin no more.

    So Does God change?


    Also I am still waiting on RC to answer questions 1 & 3
     
  2. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    God doesn't change. He outright says that He doesn't change. His nature, namely His holiness, is the same now as it was from the beginning. What changes is how He deals with us.

    Why did God allow incest at one time? Because the gene pool wasn't as corrupt at the start as it became later on and God forbids it to protect us. Almost everything commanded against in the Law of Moses was something that was being done by the surrounding nations and that includes everything right down to sexual relations. It is likely that the pagans, by the time of Moses, had no restriction on incest and were producing children that were sick, or malformed or stillborn due to a corrupted gene pool. Incest was common among the royal families of the pagan cultures because they wanted to keep royalty in the family. It has been suggested that King Tutankhamen was the product of incest and that he was sick and deformed as a result. So God commanded the Israelites not to commit incest to avoid the problems experienced by the surrounding nations.

    As for Cain... One thing we fail to recognize in the biblical account is that time is often telescoped in the Bible. People were living for hundreds and hundreds of years, and we have no idea how long it was between the time that Cain was cursed and the time that He took a wife. Adam and Eve might have had other children that the Bible doesn't mention. That is not far fetched. The woman he married would likely have been related to Him, but it would not necessarily have been a woman from his immediate family. But even if she was his sister, at that point in time, it was not a problem.

    Common sense and logic would tell us that at the beginning there would have had to have been what we all incest and that at that time, God allowed it.

    There would have been no additional creations of human beings because that would have resulted a separate line of humanity not corrupted by Adam's sin.
     
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  3. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    Who says Abraham wasn't lying when he said

    Genesis 20:11-13 NLT
    Abraham replied, “I thought, ‘This is a godless place. They will want my wife and will kill me to get her.’ [12] And she really is my sister, for we both have the same father, but different mothers. And I married her. [13] When God called me to leave my father’s home and to travel from place to place, I told her, ‘Do me a favor. Wherever we go, tell the people that I am your brother.’”

    Abram was not known for telling the truth and Sarai is not listed as his sister elsewhere from what I can see. (Except when Abram is lying- again.). In fact, it seems like he is trying to cover his tracks. Oh no! I wasn't lying to you! She really is my sister, just my half-sister.

    Genesis 11:31 NLT
    One day Terah took his son Abram, his daughter-in-law Sarai (his son Abram’s wife), and his grandson Lot (his son Haran’s child) and moved away from Ur of the Chaldeans. He was headed for the land of Canaan, but they stopped at Haran and settled there.

    Sarah is referred to as a daughter-in-law and not a daughter or a half-sister. It might be that Terah hooked-up with a woman who already had children or was already pregnant. Or Sarai might be completely unrelated.

    There are so many different ways one can read this.
     
    #3 MartyF, May 24, 2019
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    First cousins, incest? How far removed before, not incest?
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I think we need to ask.

    Why, Adam and Eve? Before the foundation of the world there was going to be redemption, from death, brought about through sin, by blood, wherein there was the soul, being, of the flesh, which would come from a virgin, woman.

    That's before the foundation of the world. That was already going to take place.

    Were Adan and Eve created, specifically, for the purpose of that seed of the virgin woman, because of an already present problem in Genesis 1:2 or a future developing problem?

    The future developing problem would be the need for redemption? Who was already present at Genesis 1:2 that would be directly involved in the future developing problem? Would the line to the seed of the virgin need to be incest free?

    By what means would the present problem in Genesis 1:2 be destroyed along with his works?

    BTW I believe why Canaan was cursed is because he was the product of Ham and Mrs Noah. Incest.....
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Might? ". . . And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. . . ." -- Genesis 5:4-5.
     
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  7. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your correction. :Thumbsup
     
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  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    There are, of course, many things we DON'T know about pre-Flood men, & about the early generations post-flood. While it's easy to imagine Noah's grandchildren marrying each other, it's not so easy to see Adam's children doing so without sinning.

    As for incest, there's an almost-universal "taboo" against it, even among pagans & "primitive" peoples. And the fact that incestuous relationships often bring about children with "birth defects" is an indication it's wrong. (Remember the hemophilia prevalent in many European royal families, who, for generations, married first cousins, nieces, nephews, etc.) And we have no evidence of a "pure gene pool" among early generations.

    And another big mystery - "cavemen". Were they actually MEN? Did they have souls?

    There can be no denying their existence, nor the fact they did things no animal could or did do. But then, we must remember that some bird species build nests more-intricate than anything man can make - and without hands! Not to mention many kinds of spiders that make webs no man could duplicate, even with web-making equipment! So, who's to say that soulless critters with hands co0uldn't make tools & weapons, or use fire?

    WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW !

    Another thing - multiple spouses. Many Biblical "patriarchs" had multiple wives & concubines, from Jacob to the kings of Israel & Judah. And we don't know how many of the ancient women had multiple lovers or spouses, even though it was more common for men to do so. And it seems God would rather a marriage be between one man & one woman, as He set forth in Genesis 2:24. Now, while most "civilized" nations have strict laws against polygamy, many nations & peoples do not. So, WE really can't condemn someone from another part of the world for being a polygamist. BUT GOD DOES CONDEMN FORNICATION, which is sexual relationships between people not married to each other. No questions there! And different societies have different ways for people to be "officially" married. Among some people, a couple can simply say, "I marry thee" to each other in fronta witnesses & be considered married, without any "paperwork".

    And I don't know where Cain's wife came from. I readily admit complete ignorance of the truth about that. But I also know GOD takes a dim view of incest. I'm simply gonna wait for God to reveal the answers to me some day, and, meanwhile, not worry about it, as those people are long-dead.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    God cannot change, yet in order to create, requires change. This is where the Son of God [the Logos, the Word, John 1:1-3] enters the picture. Co-eternal, co-equal, yet someone other than God. He, the Son has always been God with God, yet is another person "with God" [John 1:2]. God being eternal, invisible and omnipresnt, the Son acts [the finite, temporally] on behalf of God in all things [John 1:3; John 1:18]. So in the incarnation, for an example [John 1:14] He, the Son, the Word became flesh, changed, if you will. But being God [John 1:1] did not change. But becoming man was a change. What changed? He did not cease being God. But how He was "with God" [John 1:2] changed. The irregular churches fail to understand this.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    All animals have souls. In most English translations in regards to animals the word for soul in their regard is translated "creature" [Genesis 1:24] or "life" [Leviticus 17:11].

    The difference being, man was made in God's image.
     
  11. Baptist4life

    Baptist4life Active Member
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    Has roby "left the building?" :)
     
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Leviticus 18
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Clearly incest was not forbidden early in the family of Adam and Eve. Later, the law against incest was issued. Therefore God deals with mankind in different ways over time. The New Covenant is different than the Old Covenant.

    The difficulty is God is immutable, yet changes His actions depending of the behavior of people. The solution is not to deny the reality, but to recognize immutable refers to God's attributes, just, merciful, holy, and so forth. But when God makes a conditional covenant, if you keep doing this, I will punish, but if you repent, I will relent, He is not changing His attributes.
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Was the killing of Abel by Cain a sin at the time it took place?

    When did incest become incest?
     
  15. OldArmy

    OldArmy New Member

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