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Does God hate the Sinner?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jstrickland1989, Dec 16, 2005.

  1. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    I see where we differ, our the definitions of hate, & I'm not saying I'm absolutly right. Still have a lot to learn, Preacher or not. Thats always been a highlite for me by coming here. I learn, & sometimes I'm blessed by being able to help someone else learn.
    You still seem to miss one point, or it's my miss, that is God's omniciense(spell?) He knows if one is going to remain a "worker" of iniquity all his natural life or not. We don't.
    The same for the crowd at the trials & the cross.
    Jesus was always ,....always being our example.
    Again, being God in the flesh, He could have looked at each indivdual there & known who would & who would not come to Him before it was too late for them. He could have died quietly on the cross, but He spoke the words He did for the benefit of all, in that day....& this day. Being our example.
    we do know that on that very day, that some, not many (that were recorded anyway) of that crowd did believe on Him.
     
  2. Sunnydays

    Sunnydays New Member

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    The bible also says we are enemies of God
    Romans 5:10
     
  3. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    Yes, we are enimies untill we come to believe on His Son. Once we are cleansed by His precious blood we become His Child!!
     
  4. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Hey All,

    What about "Jacob have I love, and Esau I have hated!" in Romans 9 just for the mix?

    sdg!

    rd
     
  5. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    again in this verse he is using the term to mean to detest, to love less,not to utterly hate.
     
  6. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Hey all,

    I (from a Calvinistic perspective) have always had a harder time with those who do mental gymnastics around the plain teachings of the Scriptures, than the "hard sayings" of the Scriptures themselves.

    Paul in Romans 9 quoted out of the OT that God hated Esau "out of hand." He rejected Esau, even before either were born He chose one over the other so his purpose of Grace could be known.

    It has been said, "How could God hate Esau?" A better question of Grace might be, "How could God love Jacob and choose him?" It is only by His Sovereign Grace that this was done.

    If I buy a car, and the car serves the purpose for which it was bought; no one says I am unholy or unrighteous if I trade it in or set on the back of the lot and let it rust out. But, we will not give God the same perogative. I have never understood that.

    Did not the book of Daniel say that God sets up and sets down the very "basest of men" (KJV)? Did he not tell Israel that he would use a heathen king to bring judgment on them if they disobeyed. Then he did what he said he would do! Then he turned around and raised up another heathen king to bring judgment on the first heathen king b/c they caused Israel to suffer. He fulfilled the promise to Abraham; who blesses you I will bless and who curses you I will curse.

    I have no problem that our God is absloutely sovereign and does what he wants to do to bring glory to himself. And I for one do not understand all that it means that "God hates." But, I am sure by faith going to accept it and not try to exegete it out of the Scriptures b/c I don't understand what God has chosen to do in the hidden councils of His own will.

    We claim to be Biblicists, and inerrantists, etc. on the one hand; but we have such a hard time with the absolute sovereignty of God so as to make "god" (little "g") in our own image when He does not fit our little categories or paradigms on the other hand.

    It would seem to me that we should spend some time in the historic confessions and exegesis of the faith and find out what the great Reformers and Baptists of the past had to say about such issues?

    We might be somewhat chagrined if we took the time to look rather than the "I think" and "I feel" and "it seems to me" eisegesis done many times on the BB (included by me).

    The "Priesthood of the Believer" does not mean that there is no history of interpretation in many Baptist's Traditions--all of them.

    And we really must figure it all out and be safe, secure, and warm in our own little theological blankets. So we play mental tennis with great questions of the faith rather than taking them to our Baptist forebearers.

    Just points to ponder.

    sdg!

    rd
     
  7. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    You are right to a degree, if I understand all you're saying. I'm not picking on ya but some of the words you used I just don't understand. Just an ole' mountain boy that don't even remember much of his H.S. english.
    That said would'nt even our forbearers had similar questions & ideas before they reached a higher level of understanding?
    again not picking but I hope I never get to the point where I think I'm inerrant, & I'm far from being a Biblicist.
    If I think I don't understand a subject then I don't try to explain it, I read & try to learn...mabey asking my own questions along the way. But there are subjects in the Bible that if we're wrong in our particular way of interpeting it then no Great harm done.But in the same sense there are those we had better be right on target or we could lead one down a wrong path.
    Oh, I have NO problem with My God doing what He pleases,how He pleases, when He pleases. I'm just glad it Pleased Him to save an old wretch like me!!
     
  8. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Here is a little something I wrote on this subject several years ago. I think every point of it will bear up under the scrutiny of Scripture:

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  9. LorrieAB

    LorrieAB New Member

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    H8130 (hatest)
    ùׂðà
    śânê'
    saw-nay'
    A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

    Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


    G3404 (hated)
    μισέω
    miseō
    mis-eh'-o
    From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

    Obviously He can and does hate. Hatest - (to hate PERSONALLY).

    Hated - to detest (ESP. TO PERSECUTE).

    God can and does things we are not to do (hate, swearing oaths, judging certain things...). I don't understand why this is so hard for some to understand? We as adults do and watch and talk about things our children are not ready to do, so we tell them not to do them. As we are His children, there are things we are not ready to do so He tells us not to do them.
     
  10. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Preacher,
    Mark, &
    LorrieAB,

    Amen! It seems that all three of you have agreed with me in principle if not in the minute details!

    sdg!

    rd
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You pull one definition of hate and say "that is it!" It doesn't in all instances mean to "hate personally". If it did, God would be a murderer as Jesus said that anyone who hates (personally) is a murderer. It's not that hard to let Bible interpret Bible.
     
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    It depends on what you mean.

    If you mean "Does God have an intense dislike for the sinner?", the answer is yes.

    If you mean "Does God withhold his love from the sinner?", the answer is no.

    In our English verbage, we have implied that hate is the opposite of love, and therefore when something is hated, it is not loved. But these are implication of the English language, and those implication are not present in scripture.

    It is accurate in our English understanding to say that God doesn't hate the sinner, but he does dislike the sinner.
     
  13. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Has not God witheld His love from those who have been consigned to the eternal flames of hell?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  14. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Mark,

    I agree with you wholeheartedly! and AMEN!

    But, I think this might be one of the "hard sayings of Scripture" around which many may not be able to get a hand or understand and be caused to stumble.

    We must remember that all of us are at different levels of maturity. We must consider this lest we make a weaker brother "to eat meat or not eat meat" as the apostle so aptly said.

    I for one am going to "throttle back" my theological assertions in this particular thread.

    Points to ponder!

    sdg!

    rd
     
  15. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Why is it that most people when they see Luke 14:26 say that the hate there really means "less of a preference for," yet some of the same people when they see Romans 9:13 say "Yup! God hated Esau!"? The hate in both verses is the same Greek word (miseo). Why can't we be consistent?

    God hated Esau in that He chose (elected) the conniving younger brother to be the one through which the nation of Israel would be established rather than the expected first-born.
     
  16. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    In the statement "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated", the object of hatred is not so much Esau himself as his progeny. This was a people despised by God because they despised God's choice of the patriarch Jacob over their patriarch Esau. As it is said in Malachi:

    "Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob and hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

    Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places: thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will thrown down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever."

    Sure sounds like bona fide hatred to me.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Has not God witheld His love from those who have been consigned to the eternal flames of hell?

    Mark Osgatharp
    </font>[/QUOTE]Then why is God "grieved" over those who end up there? If He hates them, why care?
     
  18. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    No. I surmise that greater is love to let a loved one go than to force a loved one to stay.
     
  19. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Hell is not a matter of letting a loved one go because:

    A. The wicked are not God's loved ones.

    B. God didn't just "let them go". Rather, He created the place of torment we called hell and will thrust the wicked into it.

    C. The 5th and 11th Psalms, among others, assert that God hates the wicked and will, subsequently, destroy them. That means God takes an active role in both hating and punishing the wicked - hardly the same scenario as letting a loved one go.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  20. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    From The day that Adam sinned, God has made a way for people to turn from their sin, both sin nature..& the personl sins. We need to understand that God is God. We ARE not going to undersatnd every detail till we are with him. If He says in HIS Word that HE can hate...then He can do it. He doesn't tell us to do it, He tells us to Love.
    As I've stated before He knows the end Of each individual(yet He gives them an opportunity to repent)...we don't know the end.
    He withholds His Love from NOONE, remember it rains on the just & the unjust. He wants NONE to perish...that is made clear, but He knows that no matter what ....some (unfortunatly a lot)will.
    The word perish in the greek (Strongs Def.) means to utterly deatroy. The way the word hate is used,
    from the verse that started this post means to utterly hate. Both indicate a finality, no return, no more chances.
    I know it doesn't sit well with some, but like I stated on another different post if I am wrong & you can show me then I will admit it...learn from it & grow!! None of us are perfect yet...all of us are still children being taught from His Word. Any of us can be wrong at different times.

    Mark..You posted at the same time as me so I wanted to add this. If you study...God doesn't "thrust" anyone into hell. It was made for satan & his followers!
     
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