1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 25, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    9,732
    Likes Received:
    404
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In another thread, I asked if the present crisis in Ukraine, was "ordained" by God, as He is said to ALL things according to Reformed theololgy.

    This is what @Iconoclast said:

    "Yes it does. Think about the attributes of God. Can an all knowing God, not know?
    Nothing can happen or move randomly outside of God decreeing it to do so.
    God does not make Putin do evil.
    Putin's self will acts according to his own fallen, unregenerate, nature.
    SBG....we believe God is Holy,just,and good.
    His perfect means He cannot increase or diminish...or He would not be Perfect.
    Does that help.
    God restrained Abimelech, by way of a dream...but let Hitler bring horrendous violence...like the Assaryians in Isa.10

    To "ordain" means that God would "cause" what happens in our world. Both terms go together.

    God is ALL KNOWING (Omniscience), but this does not mean that He is the actual "cause", of everything in our world.

    For reasons that are not disclosed to our finite minds in the Infinite Word of God, God does "allow", but not "cause", even evil in this world. And does indeed many times use it to bring good.

    In the present situation in Ukraine, where this Sovereign country has been INVADED by the Russian leader, Putin, who is murdering many people, and forcing them to subject themselves to his rule. How far do we say that God has "ordained", or "caused" this atrocious behavior, by this wicked man?

    How can The Holy God of the Bible, be directly responsible for "causing" these acts?
     
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,111
    Likes Received:
    877
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Isaiah 45:9-10 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,111
    Likes Received:
    877
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    8,205
    Likes Received:
    1,274
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It would really be helpful if sbg would read the prophet Habakkuk sometime. Then he would see that God ordains all things.

    Habakkuk 1:1-17
    The oracle that Habakkuk the prophet saw. O Lord, how long shall I cry for help, and you will not hear? Or cry to you “Violence!” and you will not save? Why do you make me see iniquity, and why do you idly look at wrong? Destruction and violence are before me; strife and contention arise. So the law is paralyzed, and justice never goes forth. For the wicked surround the righteous; so justice goes forth perverted. “Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told. For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own. They are dreaded and fearsome; their justice and dignity go forth from themselves. Their horses are swifter than leopards, more fierce than the evening wolves; their horsemen press proudly on. Their horsemen come from afar; they fly like an eagle swift to devour. They all come for violence, all their faces forward. They gather captives like sand. At kings they scoff, and at rulers they laugh. They laugh at every fortress, for they pile up earth and take it. Then they sweep by like the wind and go on, guilty men, whose own might is their god!” Are you not from everlasting, O Lord my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O Lord, you have ordained them as a judgment, and you, O Rock, have established them for reproof. You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he? You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. He brings all of them up with a hook; he drags them out with his net; he gathers them in his dragnet; so he rejoices and is glad. Therefore he sacrifices to his net and makes offerings to his dragnet; for by them he lives in luxury, and his food is rich. Is he then to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing nations forever?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    8,205
    Likes Received:
    1,274
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Habakkuk 2:1-20

    I will take my stand at my watchpost and station myself on the tower, and look out to see what he will say to me, and what I will answer concerning my complaint. And the Lord answered me: “Write the vision; make it plain on tablets, so he may run who reads it. For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end—it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it; it will surely come; it will not delay. “Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith. “Moreover, wine is a traitor, an arrogant man who is never at rest. His greed is as wide as Sheol; like death he has never enough. He gathers for himself all nations and collects as his own all peoples.” Shall not all these take up their taunt against him, with scoffing and riddles for him, and say, “Woe to him who heaps up what is not his own— for how long?— and loads himself with pledges!” Will not your debtors suddenly arise, and those awake who will make you tremble? Then you will be spoil for them. Because you have plundered many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall plunder you, for the blood of man and violence to the earth, to cities and all who dwell in them. “Woe to him who gets evil gain for his house, to set his nest on high, to be safe from the reach of harm! You have devised shame for your house by cutting off many peoples; you have forfeited your life. For the stone will cry out from the wall, and the beam from the woodwork respond. “Woe to him who builds a town with blood and founds a city on iniquity! Behold, is it not from the Lord of hosts that peoples labor merely for fire, and nations weary themselves for nothing? For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. “Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink— you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness! You will have your fill of shame instead of glory. Drink, yourself, and show your uncircumcision! The cup in the Lord’s right hand will come around to you, and utter shame will come upon your glory! The violence done to Lebanon will overwhelm you, as will the destruction of the beasts that terrified them, for the blood of man and violence to the earth, to cities and all who dwell in them. “What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For its maker trusts in his own creation when he makes speechless idols! Woe to him who says to a wooden thing, Awake; to a silent stone, Arise! Can this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in it. But the Lord is in his holy temple; let all the earth keep silence before him.”
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    8,205
    Likes Received:
    1,274
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Habakkuk 3:1-19

    A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet, according to Shigionoth. O Lord, I have heard the report of you, and your work, O Lord, do I fear. In the midst of the years revive it; in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy. God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His splendor covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. His brightness was like the light; rays flashed from his hand; and there he veiled his power. Before him went pestilence, and plague followed at his heels. He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low. His were the everlasting ways. I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction; the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble. Was your wrath against the rivers, O Lord? Was your anger against the rivers, or your indignation against the sea, when you rode on your horses, on your chariot of salvation? You stripped the sheath from your bow, calling for many arrows. Selah You split the earth with rivers. The mountains saw you and writhed; the raging waters swept on; the deep gave forth its voice; it lifted its hands on high. The sun and moon stood still in their place at the light of your arrows as they sped, at the flash of your glittering spear. You marched through the earth in fury; you threshed the nations in anger. You went out for the salvation of your people, for the salvation of your anointed. You crushed the head of the house of the wicked, laying him bare from thigh to neck. Selah You pierced with his own arrows the heads of his warriors, who came like a whirlwind to scatter me, rejoicing as if to devour the poor in secret. You trampled the sea with your horses, the surging of mighty waters. I hear, and my body trembles; my lips quiver at the sound; rottenness enters into my bones; my legs tremble beneath me. Yet I will quietly wait for the day of trouble to come upon people who invade us. Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines, the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food, the flock be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will take joy in the God of my salvation. God, the Lord, is my strength; he makes my feet like the deer’s; he makes me tread on my high places. To the choirmaster: with stringed instruments.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    8,205
    Likes Received:
    1,274
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Read God's word through the prophet Jeremiah. God ordains both good and evil. He is always in complete control.

    Jeremiah 29:4-23

    “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce. Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease. But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare. For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are among you deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams that they dream, for it is a lie that they are prophesying to you in my name; I did not send them, declares the Lord. “For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile. “Because you have said, ‘The Lord has raised up prophets for us in Babylon,’ thus says the Lord concerning the king who sits on the throne of David, and concerning all the people who dwell in this city, your kinsmen who did not go out with you into exile: ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, behold, I am sending on them sword, famine, and pestilence, and I will make them like vile figs that are so rotten they cannot be eaten. I will pursue them with sword, famine, and pestilence, and will make them a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, a terror, a hissing, and a reproach among all the nations where I have driven them, because they did not pay attention to my words, declares the Lord, that I persistently sent to you by my servants the prophets, but you would not listen, declares the Lord.’ Hear the word of the Lord, all you exiles whom I sent away from Jerusalem to Babylon: ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, concerning Ahab the son of Kolaiah and Zedekiah the son of Maaseiah, who are prophesying a lie to you in my name: Behold, I will deliver them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he shall strike them down before your eyes. Because of them this curse shall be used by all the exiles from Judah in Babylon: “The Lord make you like Zedekiah and Ahab, whom the king of Babylon roasted in the fire,” because they have done an outrageous thing in Israel, they have committed adultery with their neighbors’ wives, and they have spoken in my name lying words that I did not command them. I am the one who knows, and I am witness, declares the Lord.’”
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    9,732
    Likes Received:
    404
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Hebrew רַע is used for "distress, misery, calamity", but the sense of "evil" cannot be used for the Holy God of the Bible
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    9,732
    Likes Received:
    404
    Faith:
    Baptist

    how does this answer the OP?
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    8,205
    Likes Received:
    1,274
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When God spoke to Moses he proclaimed these words.

    Exodus 4:11

    Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

    I get so very tired of the christian who, in his questioning, makes God in his own image purely because he cannot fathom a God who allows evil to be the means by which God's plan is enacted.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,111
    Likes Received:
    877
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To not believe in the absolute sovereignty of God over all of His creation and instead to believe that everything is subject to the vagaries of the universe, believing that God might intervene or maybe He won't (believing in a "watch-maker God" as Deists do), is a horrible way to live one's life.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    8,205
    Likes Received:
    1,274
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Job 42:1-6,10-11
    Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

    And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house.
    And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.


    sbg, you are in denial regarding God and his ordination of all things, both good and evil.
    I know you have me on ignore, but others will read this and know how wrong you are.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,111
    Likes Received:
    877
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Bingo.
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    9,732
    Likes Received:
    404
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So when we sin, it is God Who ordained that we sin?
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,354
    Likes Received:
    2,320
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ordain does not mean cause
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,111
    Likes Received:
    877
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are wanting to judge God's actions solely by the impacts on this earthly life. This earthly life is not the be all, end all. It is a means to an end - the end being the glory of God. We mere worms do not understand the end from the beginning but God does.

    God can ordain sin without being the Author of sin. We are depraved through and through. Even the Law was given to make sin exceed what it already was - Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    9,732
    Likes Received:
    404
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To order something to happen is as good as causing it
     
  18. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2021
    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    137
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't think Reformed theology has a perfect answer to this but neither does any other system. I have to admit that to truly say that God ordains every single molecule in the universe in the sense that ordain means he actively decrees it to be then I don't see how you can avoid making God the author of evil.

    But if you are not Reformed but still believe that God is all powerful and can see the future you are in about the same boat. If you're sitting at the table and a child rolls a marble and it goes toward the edge, and you can stop it or let it go, and you let it go then you are responsible if the marble goes off the table whether you started it rolling or not.

    We quickly get into impossible areas with this kind of conjecture. Did God create Adam and decree that he fall so that it was ordained in such a way that there is no other possibility than for Adam to fall? The Reformed answer is usually yes it had to be but Adam really could have chosen not to sin. This is not a good argument. But the non Reformed alternative that God foresaw this but chose not to do anything about it still makes God responsible by any standard we use as humans. I don't think there is an answer.

    My guess (and it's a total guess) would be to say that God in his infinite wisdom, has a will that he wants to accomplish. He has created men with a certain amount of freedom which he also over rides as he sees fit but often allows. We know the Reformed position on total depravity is that men while bad in every area are not as bad as they could be - but that means that they have a degree of freedom to be much worse than others due to their own freedom to do so. Maybe God in his wisdom uses that to cause evil men to accomplish his overall will according to his wisdom - yet without making them do anything more evil than they want to do or would have done on their own.

    That's just my opinion and it won't bother me if someone thinks it's baloney because I truly don't think there is an answer.
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    9,732
    Likes Received:
    404
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seems like you don't know what ORDAIN means. Check it out
     
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    9,732
    Likes Received:
    404
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Does God's Foreknowledge equate to Foreordaining?

    If I knew that someone would commit adultery, does it mean that I ordained it?

    Reformed theology is trying to put God in a box and say what He can and cannot do
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...