Does God Require Your Permission to Save You?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018.

?
  1. Of Course! He can't just go around saving people against their will!

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. Uh. . . He's God. He does as He wishes, and BTW, who would complain about being saved?

    6 vote(s)
    75.0%
  1. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Does God need your permission to save you? If so, why?
     
  2. Wesley Briggman Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    89
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Act 9:6 KJV And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

    It appears God had total disrespect for Saul's free-will, as He did for mine when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin. I wonder why Saul didn't refuse to follow the Lord's command? Perhaps he should have told the Lord he did not want to go into the city and he was free to make his own discussions.
     
  3. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank God, He ignored my will, because I had no interest in anything to do with Him. He saved me while I was His enemy. That is love. That is grace.
     
  4. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    God does not ask your position to "knock on your door", to evangelize you,
    Rev 3 "Behold I STAND at the door and knock".

    But instead of "blasting the door open", He calls and waits for the person to choose to either open the door ... or not.

    "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
     
  5. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Revelation 3 is a letter to a church. It's not an evangelistic plea from poor Jesus standing out in the cold just waiting for someone to be His BFF. It is a chastisement to a church which has become confident in her riches. It's a promise to those who repent of this sin that fellowship will be restored.

    Revelation 3:14–20

    To the Church in Laodicea

    [14] “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

    [15] “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! [16] So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. [17] For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. [18] I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. [19] Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. [20] Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (ESV)
     
  6. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The "saved condition" is not one where Christ is "on the outside" separated from you - and knocking ... waiting for you to open the door.

    The Christless - separated from Christ ... "Gospel" is "another Gospel".

    Under the "ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 we have "CHRIST in me the hope of glory" and "no longer I who LIVE but Christ that lives IN me" Gal 2:20.

    As you point out -- Calvinism may indeed have a "Christless gospel" but that is not the right one.
     
  7. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We can clearly see who the letter is addressed to. This isn't a tough one.

    Can there be a separation between a father and a son? Can a son remain a son and be estranged from his father for a time? I think so.
     
  8. Edna Davidsen New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    No, I don't think He does. There's something odd about a Good who's dependant on how humans feel or react. But it's always worth considering these kinds of questions.
     
  9. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Welcome to BB, Edna, and thanks for your reply.

    Indeed, asking questions is how we learn.
     
  10. Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    738
    Faith:
    Baptist
    By our limited understanding, there is "something odd about a God" who would create man knowing man would rebel and He would have to die for us. Also "something odd about a God" who would even mess with creating and dealing with man.
     
  11. HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    22,768
    Likes Received:
    1,674
    Faith:
    Baptist
    no He doesn't need our permission but nonetheless He respects our decision:

    From the very beginning He gave that ability

    - don't eat the fruit - oops.


    HankD
     
  12. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's how we got into the ditch, Hank. It's not how we get out.
     
  13. Wesley Briggman Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    89
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Edna, thanks for sharing. My statement was intended to be sarcastic. God never needs mans "permission" to do His will. His chosen are drawn to Him by His power.
     
  14. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Indeed that is His "sovereign choice" and the Bible shows it

    God does not ask your position to "knock on your door", to evangelize you,
    Rev 3 "Behold I STAND at the door and knock".

    But instead of "blasting the door open", He calls and waits for the person to choose to either open the door ... or not.

    "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

    It is a "whosoever will" system that God has created by supernaturally "drawing ALL mankind" John 12:32 to Himself and thus enabling that choice to accept or reject the gospel instead of being stuck on 'depraved sinful nature always says reject'


    Interesting idea - but the Bible points the other way.
     
  15. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You still haven't learned how to exegete that text, Bob. Context, context, context.
     
  16. InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    22,011
    Likes Received:
    1,521
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, but Ezekiel 36, obviously written to the nation of Israel, is butchered by Calvinists and applied to present day people. Context, context, context.
     
  17. HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    22,768
    Likes Received:
    1,674
    Faith:
    Baptist
    True

    Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

    So No,He doesn't ask our permission but simply commands us to be saved. Obviously a bunch ignore Him.

    HankD
     
  18. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,908
    Likes Received:
    836
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The OWN in there would be the jewish people, as those who were chosen by God to receive Him indeed did do just that!
     
  19. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,908
    Likes Received:
    836
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Can God save a sinner whose will is against getting saved by Him, as ALL of ours wills were before getting saved?
     
  20. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nope! Only good people who love God, whose deeds are good, and who come to the light so that all men might see how good they truly are, can be saved. Those who chose God before He chose them. Now those are the people God wants in His army.