Does God Require Your Permission to Save You?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018.

?
  1. Of Course! He can't just go around saving people against their will!

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. Uh. . . He's God. He does as He wishes, and BTW, who would complain about being saved?

    6 vote(s)
    75.0%
  1. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Not true.
     
  2. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    As already stated in the post above --

    It is a "whosoever will" system that God has created by supernaturally "drawing ALL mankind" John 12:32 to Himself and thus enabling that choice to accept or reject the gospel instead of being stuck on 'depraved sinful nature always says reject'
     
  3. tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    7,605
    Likes Received:
    739
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

    5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


    Why would God need any permission from and ungodly, sinful, enemy to save them?... These aren't my thoughts read the scriptures brethren... Brother Glen:)
     
  4. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist

    I spend all day explaining to all the people on BB that all doesn't always mean, without exception. You do know that billions have lived and died without ever hearing the name Jesus, right?


    Acts 22:15 "For thou (Paul) shalt be a witness unto ALL men of what thou hast seen or heard."

    Mark 1:5 "And there went out to him ALL the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem and were ALL baptized in the river Jordan"

    Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of ALL men for my name's sake."

    John 3:26 "And they came unto John and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou bearest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and ALL men came to him."

    Luke 23:18-19 And they all cried out at once, saying, "Away with this [Man], and release to us Barabbas"​

    And, here's a "world" thrown in for good measure. Notice how it doesn't mean every single person, without exception.

    John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, "You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!"​
     
  5. InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    22,015
    Likes Received:
    1,524
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's pitiable that you don't have the reading comprehension to discern a rhetorical use of the word "all" and a literal use of the word "all" on a case by case basis.
     
  6. Felipe Rios Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2017
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    24
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. But he wants people to CHOOSE Him before He saves them. God can do as he pleases and that's how He has chosen to save us (I know you wont agree). :):)
     
  7. Edna Davidsen New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Thank you, Brian, yes, it's an important skill to be able to admit there are things we don't know and ask questions about it.
     
  8. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,991
    Likes Received:
    837
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Holy Spirit MUST grant the sinner a rebirth, correct?
     
  9. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The Holy Spirit "causes the new birth" but not before enabling the sinner to choose. The "Drawing of God" enables all the choice that depravity disables for choosing the Gospel -- even by Calvinism's standards.

    In Calvinism - God "can't do that" without first causing the New Birth.

    In the Arminian model - "He can do that"
     
  10. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    True -- in Calvinism "all does not mean ALL" and "World does not mean WORLD" etc.

    But in the Arminian model - we can have this --

    1 John 2:2 "he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"... yes "really"
    John 3:!6 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" -- yes "really"
     
  11. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist


    "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

    If Christ's atoning sacrifice was the propitiation for every man woman and child, then there would be no person in Hell. The Hell you don't believe exists, but that's another story. . .

    Also, when the phrase, "not only us", is used in the NT it means not only the Jews. And, as well have already covered, world doesn't mean every single individual living within the world. It can mean, as in this instance, people from all over the world.
     
  12. JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    5,360
    Likes Received:
    129
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How does a dead man open a door?
     
  13. JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    5,360
    Likes Received:
    129
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is where Arminians show themselves to be not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.

    Let's put it in a simple way for you:

    "The store caught on fire last night, but all the people were evacuated safely."

    Does that mean all people? Or just the people who were in the store?

    How does "all" not mean "all" in this case?
     
  14. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The flaw in your logic is not "sufficient cause" to edit/downsize/reject the scripture.

    Your logic is flawed in that the atoning sacrifice is the model God uses - for example Lev 16 "Day of Atonement"

    1 John 2:2 "he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"... yes "really"
    John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" -- yes "really"

    In Lev 16 the entire atonement process must complete. You have suggested that it ends with the work of Christ as the "sin offering" - as He makes the "Atoning Sacrifice" on the cross... but Lev 16 says it must also include Christ's work as "High Priest" which Paul says in Heb 8:1-5 and in Hebrews 9 .. is going on in heaven - and deals with each individual case.

    Calvinism's big problem is that it does not take into view the entire scope of "Atonement" as the Bible defines it.


    Pure speculation with no justification for it - since nothing in 1 or 2 or 3 John tells us that John is only writing to Jews.


    Wishful thinking in the context of 1 John 2.

    The text does not say "and not our sins only but the sins of people from all over the world" -- it simply is not there ... though it may have been much-hoped-for. :)
     
  15. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you wish to read the texts literalistically (not literally), I will not spend my time discussing/debating with you. I can't because you kill all hope of understanding the original intent of the writer.

    If we refuse to see hyperbole and figures of speech for what they are, then we can't even get to the starting line of a debate because we don't have an agreed-upon source.
     
  16. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,991
    Likes Received:
    837
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are no sinners who can be saved apart from the Spirit Himself grant to them saving faith and the spiritual means to receiove Jesus!
     
  17. utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,195
    Likes Received:
    117
    Show me this man who refused to hear the gospel and is now elect.


    SYNERGY REQUIRED.


    Get 50 women who will agree to hear the gospel. And then get 50 men who refuse to hear the gospel.


    According to Calvinism the regeneration is required to spark on hearing the gospel. That is that there is NO REGENERATION prior BEFORE hearing the gospel.


    Calvinist logic says there is a good chance some of those WOMEN will be elect and regenerated on hearing the gospel.

    But the 50 men who refuse to hear the gospel, FORGET IT, they are guaranteed reprobates.
     
  18. HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    22,800
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.


    HankD
     
  19. thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You're right.

    Silly me. I always thought that Jesus knocked on the tomb first to get Lazarus' permission before raising him from the dead.
     
  20. HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    22,800
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am glad you are able to admit to your faults. Keep up the good work of EQ introspection brian.

    HankD