Does Regeneration Precede Faith? Part II

Nice way to avoid even looking at the scriptures I gave. What about the very term "cause" found in Ezekiel 36:27? Would not that refer to what God gave in verse 26 especially when you compare Deut. 29:4 with it??? God is the speaker in both texts. Israel is the one being addressed in both texts. The heart condition is the same subject of both texts. What God did not give (Deut. 29:4) versus what God does give (Ezek.36:26) speaks of either the lack of consequences (Deut. 29:4) versus the cause of opposite consequences (Ezek. 36:27). However, you don't want to honestly deal with the langauge so you just brush it off with the word "delusional." I understand!

All the scriptures you gave fit nicely into what I described above as the consequence of faith or justification - legal sentence of eternal life. So we are back at square one again.

 

I actually looked up each and every scripture you gave and found that only one of them actually deal with the issue you raised - Does belief cause one to become righteous or does God, without cooperation or consent make you righteous, and this righteousness causes you to believe. And that one (which I save for last) actually refutes your argument that righteousness causes faith.

While the scriptures you raised do not speak to this, the ones I listed in my previous post speak explicitly to this.

But for your sake, lets go through each of the scriptures you raised.

Ezekiel 36:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].​

There is nothing here about faith or belief. The children of Israel had hard hearts and had gone seeking after other gods. God says he will soften them and restore their relationship with Him to right standing. It talks about the law (cause you to walk in my statues means force you to follow the law), not faith.

If anything, the implication (it is not explicit) for the New Testament church is that once we are saved, if we should stray, God will come after us and restore us to Himself. It doesn't speak to how one becomes a child of God, and it certainly doesn't speak to the order -- faith comes before righteousness or righteousness before faith.

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.​

Once again, this verse says nothing whatsoever about righteousness or faith, let alone which comes before which. Furthermore, if you stopped at all to read the context you would see verse 1 says: "These [are] the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses". This text is clearly dealing with the covenant of The Law, not faith.

The next passage you list actually disproves your point:

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

Here a condition is set "as many as received him" - meaning these are the ones qualified to have the power to become sons of God. The implication (again it is not as explicit as the other verses I gave you) is that we believe and then God's power works to make us righteous.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.​

The next passage you referenced, once again, says nothing about the order of faith and righteousness:

2Cr 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.​

In fact, if you continue with this passage, it reaffirms the two covenants - the law and faith -

2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.​

The next scripture you reference is:

2Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.​

Unsurprisingly, this also says nothing about the order of faith and righteousness.

Next you said 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, but I've expanded it to 3-6 to give you the benefit of the doubt (because 4-5 mentions neither faith or righteousness):

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:​

If anything it predicates their believing the gospel first upon the apostles delivering the gospel, and secondly upon them receiving the gospel, but it isn't explicitly stated.

Next,

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:​

Here, righteousness (which one could argue is synonymous with sanctification) and faith (or belief in the truth) are given as the means whereby they have been chosen by God from the beginning. If anything it demonstrates faith and righteousness as necessary components for being chosen by God. However, it says nothing about which comes first or which causes the other - just that both are the cause to being in the election of God.

Next is

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.​

While this verse talks about faith and being a child of God as though they are one and the same, it does not specifically mention righteousness, and therefore there is no bearing on our argument about which causes which (righteousness and faith).

Finally, you list a lot of verses in John 3. 3-11, 14-16, & 18-21.

The ones you skipped are telling:

Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
​

Here the indication is that belief and receiving are synonymous.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

Here we see belief in Christ as a condition of having eternal life.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

Once again, we see that faith (belief in Christ) is a condition of salvation, and that the cause for condemnation is the absence of faith. But it doesn't say it is a "leads to" cause... it says "condemned already". It doesn't say if you don't have faith it leads to condemnation. It says you are condemned already and you won't be saved because you need faith to be saved from the condemnation you already have.

Verses 19-21 imply righteousness, but don't explicitly state it (it talks of darkness, light, and good and evil deeds). In any case, they also imply that one doesn't have righteousness because of their own choice, not by God's choice.

Once again, the question of cause between righteousness and faith is not addressed explicitly, but can be resolved logically:

If you believe, you will not perish but have everlasting life,
and if you do not believe you will perish,
and if you are condemned already before choosing to believe
and if your own choice to reject the light and do evil deeds is the cause of that condemnation
Then the following picture is painted:

We do evil deeds and are therefore already condemned. If we believe in Christ we are absolved of our evil deeds and receive eternal life. Therefore sin is the cause of death, and faith is the cause of life. One can only have life (light) if their deeds are good (righteousness). Therefore faith is the cause of righteousness.

 

gup

Yes it is. To believe is a command a statue ! The promise is I will cause you to walk in my statues. The hebrew word is :choq:

statute, ordinance, limit, something prescribed, due

a) prescribed task

b) prescribed portion

c) action prescribed (for oneself), resolve

d) prescribed due

e) prescribed limit, boundary

f) enactment, decree, ordinance

1) specific decree

2) law in general

g) enactments, statutes

1) conditions

2) enactments

3) decrees

4) civil enactments prescribed by God


The word is also translated commandments as in amos 2:4


4Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:

Now to believe on the Son is a commandment 1 Jn 3:23


23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The word commandment is the greek word entolē and means:


an order, command, charge, precept, injunction

a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office

2) a commandment

a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done

1) a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood

2) ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition


Now can you see the similar definitions of commandments in this verse and statues in Ezk 36:27 ?

So God by giving a New Heart causes some to obey the command or statue to believe on His Son..

 

[ignore]savedbymercy[/ignore]

 

You have no answer for post 23 ! It is sound Truth..

 

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

Paul says "with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:10) and what Ezekiel is talking about is the giving of a new heart while taking away the stony heart. Hence, it would be "with" the new heart not the stony heart that faith would arise especially in light of Deuteronomy 29:4 which is a description of the prevous stony heart.


I don't think you are even trying to be objective with these texts. If Paul says "with the heart man believeth" then belief is inseparable from the heart is it not! If the previous heart is explained in detail to be without the qualities for faith to arise in it (Deut. 29:4) because it is "STONEY" then only from the NEW HEART God promises to give as PART OF THE NEW COVENANT can faith arise from. You would like to dissect Deuterony 29:4 from Ezekiel 36:26-27 but there is a common subject, common source, common object and common consideration of contrasting consequences.

Your commentary has no substance of thought! Anyone reading Deuteronomy 29:4 even superficially can readily see that what this heart is void of the very things necessary for it to come to faith - so obvious that even a wayfaring fool could see it. You simply refuse to acknowledge the obvious!!

Can faith arise from a heart that cannot perceive? Cannot hear? Cannot See? Is not this the very reason the text suggests that God must give a new heart to accomplish these things and that is the very subject of Ezekiel 36:26-27?

You simply have to take your head and place it in a gopher's hole to miss the obvious contradiction to your conclusion of this text!!!!!!!